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The Offense So Far Should we be worried? Rate Topic: -----

#21 Guest_Big Daddy Lipscomb_*

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 12:47 PM

It was nice to see a "breakout" game, but with that said, 4 games of 2 runs or less, then the "breakout" game, is not the offense you want to have.

You want that sustained production.

With that said, I will admit, I see an IMPROVED at bat approach by Pedro with RISP and two outs....hopefully that continues.
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#22 User is offline   Trey_Beamon 

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 12:59 PM

View Postgahran, on 16 June 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Alvarez - .798


That's good to see.

Maybe it's the poor defense or the fact he has yet to go on one of his patented home run tears, but I assumed he was doing worse lately. But you look at his numbers and see that is making some strides (23.6 percent K rate, best walk rate as a major leaguer, etc.) this year.
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#23 Guest_blurjose_*

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:56 PM

View Postblurjose, on 14 June 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

TEAM STATS (NL rankings out of 15 teams)
Runs: 9th
OBP: 10th
SLG: 10th
OPS: 11th

Checking in about 10 days later.

Runs: 11th
OBP: 11th
SLG: 11th
OPS: 9th

Getting worser.
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#24 User is offline   mzimmerman81 

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 10:09 PM

Offense: not close to fine
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#25 User is offline   Yak 

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 11:54 PM

in previous years pitching could carry us because we had an airtight defense. Too many times this year we've been channeling the Three Stooges. Compound that by walks haunting us. Yeech.
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#26 User is offline   tobaccoroad 

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 06:27 AM

13 of our last 17 games this team has scored 3 or fewer runs. The other 4 were 4 runs twice, a 7 and an 11.

But I was told during and after the 7 and the 11 games that the offense was just fine. Nothing to see here.

This offense is below average. It's not fine and something needs to be done to address it.

Shoes
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#27 User is offline   donwengert4life 

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 07:11 AM

View Posttobaccoroad, on 26 June 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

13 of our last 17 games this team has scored 3 or fewer runs. The other 4 were 4 runs twice, a 7 and an 11.

But I was told during and after the 7 and the 11 games that the offense was just fine. Nothing to see here.

This offense is below average. It's not fine and something needs to be done to address it.

Shoes


It is hard to have a good offense getting so little from your first baseman and nothing from your right-fielder.
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#28 User is offline   mzimmerman81 

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 07:17 AM

The problem is if you look at the eight regulars with 200+ PAs (this doesn't include Kang, but will in one more game) only three are above average for their position, Marte in LF, Cutch in CF and Cervelli at C. Mercer/Polanco/Pedro/Walker are at or near the bottom at their respective positions in offensive production. Harrison sits slightly below average.

That's not good, actually that's really bad. Cutch has had a good year but he hasn't yet gotten his numbers up to MVP caliber, but seems to be trending that way.
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#29 User is offline   donwengert4life 

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 08:28 AM

View Postmzimmerman81, on 26 June 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

The problem is if you look at the eight regulars with 200+ PAs (this doesn't include Kang, but will in one more game) only three are above average for their position, Marte in LF, Cutch in CF and Cervelli at C. Mercer/Polanco/Pedro/Walker are at or near the bottom at their respective positions in offensive production. Harrison sits slightly below average.

That's not good, actually that's really bad. Cutch has had a good year but he hasn't yet gotten his numbers up to MVP caliber, but seems to be trending that way.


I still believe Mercer, whose BAbip is really low, will turn it around to some extent.

I am a little worried about Walker. His strikeout rate is up, his BAbip is fine, he always seems to have some little injury, and he is almost 30. It isn't inconceivable that he is headed down the other side of the mountain.

Pedro is what he is and, sadly, so is Polanco at this point.

This team has more holes than we expected. Standing still at the deadline like Neal did last year will be unacceptable because I don't think these guys are good enough to make the playoffs, especially when you know the Cubs and Giants will be improving their rosters between now and September.
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Posted 26 June 2015 - 08:36 AM

View Postdonwengert4life, on 26 June 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

I still believe Mercer, whose BAbip is really low, will turn it around to some extent.

I am a little worried about Walker. His strikeout rate is up, his BAbip is fine, he always seems to have some little injury, and he is almost 30. It isn't inconceivable that he is headed down the other side of the mountain.

Pedro is what he is and, sadly, so is Polanco at this point.

This team has more holes than we expected. Standing still at the deadline like Neal did last year will be unacceptable because I don't think these guys are good enough to make the playoffs, especially when you know the Cubs and Giants will be improving their rosters between now and September.

It's disappointing how so many thing have gone wrong or not met expectations. But like you, I think Alvarez and Polanco shoulder most of the blame. Perhaps had Mercer gotten off to a better start, McCutchen matched his previous year's production and Walker performed better, those two wouldn't be so disappointing. It's a shame all of those have taken place during the fist three months and highlighted Alvarez and Polanco. But considering the positions they play and the track record of the other players under performing, I think 1B and RF are the positions the Pirates must look to improve.

Let's be honest here. Alvarez is playing his way into being non-tendered. So it's not as if the Pirates won't have a hole at 1B during this offseason. Fill it now for both the remainder of this year and moving forward.
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#31 User is offline   donwengert4life 

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:21 AM

View PostPenguin, on 26 June 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

It's disappointing how so many thing have gone wrong or not met expectations. But like you, I think Alvarez and Polanco shoulder most of the blame. Perhaps had Mercer gotten off to a better start, McCutchen matched his previous year's production and Walker performed better, those two wouldn't be so disappointing. It's a shame all of those have taken place during the fist three months and highlighted Alvarez and Polanco. But considering the positions they play and the track record of the other players under performing, I think 1B and RF are the positions the Pirates must look to improve.

Let's be honest here. Alvarez is playing his way into being non-tendered. So it's not as if the Pirates won't have a hole at 1B during this offseason. Fill it now for both the remainder of this year and moving forward.


I agree with most of that, but I would be absolutely stunned if they non-tendered Alvarez. They will stomach mediocrity as long as it comes cheap.

Is it me or have RF and 1B, the two easiest positions to find offense at, been a black hole for the Pirates for about the last 10 years?
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#32 User is offline   Trey_Beamon 

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:26 AM

View Postdonwengert4life, on 26 June 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

I agree with most of that, but I would be absolutely stunned if they non-tendered Alvarez. They will stomach mediocrity as long as it comes cheap.

Is it me or have RF and 1B, the two easiest positions to find offense at, been a black hole for the Pirates for about the last 10 years?


The Pirates haven't had an above average first baseman since Kevin Young (before his knees went bad). Nady was a pretty good RF for a short while.
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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:29 AM

View Postdonwengert4life, on 26 June 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

I agree with most of that, but I would be absolutely stunned if they non-tendered Alvarez. They will stomach mediocrity as long as it comes cheap.

Is it me or have RF and 1B, the two easiest positions to find offense at, been a black hole for the Pirates for about the last 10 years?

Not only will I not be stunned if Alvarez is non-tendered, I'm expecting it. Between his mediocre offense (which may even be too generous) and his embarrassing defense, he's nothing more than a replacement level player. I don't they Pirates will or should pay 8-10 million for that.
"The business of baseball is to make money, not break even. I don't understand why you think the Pirates should run their team like a charity." - Willlton 6/18/2009

"The Bay trade doesn't look like it (a slam dunk winner), but if you take into account the fact that all they lost was eight months of Jason Bay's services, as well as the fact that even the Red Sox look like they won't be able to re-sign him, it's not nearly the loser many people seem to think." - tWTM 11/26/2009

"Morton is finding himself, now while this may sound weird and out there, but the fact he put on a solo concert at Piratefest shows he finally has the confidence that he lacked within himself that he didn't have in the lower minors." - aso513 2/8/2010

"Dave Littlefield vindicated." - Xiga 4/30/2011 after one scoreless inning of relief by Daniel Moskos.

"Hanrahan and Cedeno would be a gross overpayment for Belt. Sorry, but I'll stick with my realistic analysis of the market and the teams involved." - Steve Zielinski 5/25/2011

"He (Barmes) could have a .000 Batting Average and still be an asset." - bradlej31 5/28/2012

"The last time the Pirates won an extra-inning game in St. Louis that lasted at least 16 frames was April 20, 1986 at Chicago." - Kristy Robinson 8/19/2012

"I want to tweet something clever and interesting to you that will earn your respect and make you smile, since you do that to me all the time." - jpbucco to Colin Dunlap 4/12/2016

"If the Pirates had acquired Giancarlo Stanton from the Marlins, Im not sure they would have won the Benedict trade." - David Todd 11/11/2015
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#34 User is offline   Jeff King 

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 10:12 AM

View PostPenguin, on 26 June 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

It's disappointing how so many thing have gone wrong or not met expectations. But like you, I think Alvarez and Polanco shoulder most of the blame.


While I agree that Pedro's career has been a disappointment, I don't think he's one of the major contributors to the offense underperforming thus far. His offensive performance on the season so far is pretty much right in line with his career numbers. Were you thinking that 2015 was going to be the year where he suddenly broke out? Just to clarify, I'm not defending Pedro. Just saying that he's pretty much right where I expected him to be. His defense is a complete fucking joke, but offensively, what you see is what you get.

Polanco, Walker and Mercer have been the biggest issues for the offense so far. Cutch's month where he wasn't performing like Cutch didn't help either.
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Posted 26 June 2015 - 10:16 AM

View PostJeff King, on 26 June 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

While I agree that Pedro's career has been a disappointment, I don't think he's one of the major contributors to the offense underperforming thus far. His offensive performance on the season so far is pretty much right in line with his career numbers. Were you thinking that 2015 was going to be the year where he suddenly broke out? Just to clarify, I'm not defending Pedro. Just saying that he's pretty much right where I expected him to be. His defense is a complete fucking joke, but offensively, what you see is what you get.

Polanco, Walker and Mercer have been the biggest issues for the offense so far. Cutch's month where he wasn't performing like Cutch didn't help either.

Yeah, entering this season I still had hope Alvarez could improve. Obviously I was wrong.
"The business of baseball is to make money, not break even. I don't understand why you think the Pirates should run their team like a charity." - Willlton 6/18/2009

"The Bay trade doesn't look like it (a slam dunk winner), but if you take into account the fact that all they lost was eight months of Jason Bay's services, as well as the fact that even the Red Sox look like they won't be able to re-sign him, it's not nearly the loser many people seem to think." - tWTM 11/26/2009

"Morton is finding himself, now while this may sound weird and out there, but the fact he put on a solo concert at Piratefest shows he finally has the confidence that he lacked within himself that he didn't have in the lower minors." - aso513 2/8/2010

"Dave Littlefield vindicated." - Xiga 4/30/2011 after one scoreless inning of relief by Daniel Moskos.

"Hanrahan and Cedeno would be a gross overpayment for Belt. Sorry, but I'll stick with my realistic analysis of the market and the teams involved." - Steve Zielinski 5/25/2011

"He (Barmes) could have a .000 Batting Average and still be an asset." - bradlej31 5/28/2012

"The last time the Pirates won an extra-inning game in St. Louis that lasted at least 16 frames was April 20, 1986 at Chicago." - Kristy Robinson 8/19/2012

"I want to tweet something clever and interesting to you that will earn your respect and make you smile, since you do that to me all the time." - jpbucco to Colin Dunlap 4/12/2016

"If the Pirates had acquired Giancarlo Stanton from the Marlins, Im not sure they would have won the Benedict trade." - David Todd 11/11/2015
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#36 User is offline   Jeff King 

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 10:24 AM

View PostPenguin, on 26 June 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

Yeah, entering this season I still had hope Alvarez could improve. Obviously I was wrong.


But were you, "hoping," he'd get better or did you legitimately, "believe," he was going to get better? I certainly hoped he'd get better, but I didn't remotely expect any improvement whatsoever.
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#37 User is offline   Penguin 

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 10:42 AM

View PostJeff King, on 26 June 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

But were you, "hoping," he'd get better or did you legitimately, "believe," he was going to get better? I certainly hoped he'd get better, but I didn't remotely expect any improvement whatsoever.

I certainly didn't expect it, but I did have a measure of hope.

But regardless of the degree of my hope, the Pirates currently rank 24th and 25th in all of baseball in OPS and wRC+ at 1b. Where Pedro's offensive numbers may be inline with his career and appear mediocre, the Pirates aren't getting enough production from the position.
"The business of baseball is to make money, not break even. I don't understand why you think the Pirates should run their team like a charity." - Willlton 6/18/2009

"The Bay trade doesn't look like it (a slam dunk winner), but if you take into account the fact that all they lost was eight months of Jason Bay's services, as well as the fact that even the Red Sox look like they won't be able to re-sign him, it's not nearly the loser many people seem to think." - tWTM 11/26/2009

"Morton is finding himself, now while this may sound weird and out there, but the fact he put on a solo concert at Piratefest shows he finally has the confidence that he lacked within himself that he didn't have in the lower minors." - aso513 2/8/2010

"Dave Littlefield vindicated." - Xiga 4/30/2011 after one scoreless inning of relief by Daniel Moskos.

"Hanrahan and Cedeno would be a gross overpayment for Belt. Sorry, but I'll stick with my realistic analysis of the market and the teams involved." - Steve Zielinski 5/25/2011

"He (Barmes) could have a .000 Batting Average and still be an asset." - bradlej31 5/28/2012

"The last time the Pirates won an extra-inning game in St. Louis that lasted at least 16 frames was April 20, 1986 at Chicago." - Kristy Robinson 8/19/2012

"I want to tweet something clever and interesting to you that will earn your respect and make you smile, since you do that to me all the time." - jpbucco to Colin Dunlap 4/12/2016

"If the Pirates had acquired Giancarlo Stanton from the Marlins, Im not sure they would have won the Benedict trade." - David Todd 11/11/2015
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#38 User is offline   Jeff King 

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 11:00 AM

View PostPenguin, on 26 June 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

I certainly didn't expect it, but I did have a measure of hope.

But regardless of the degree of my hope, the Pirates currently rank 24th and 25th in all of baseball in OPS and wRC+ at 1b. Where Pedro's offensive numbers may be inline with his career and appear mediocre, the Pirates aren't getting enough production from the position.


Agreed. But that lies more in NEAL's decision to not try to upgrade at 1B before the season, than it does with Pedro's performance.

That doesn't change the fact that we need better production from his position. But I don't think NEAL is going to attempt to upgrade 1B. He went with Pedro for the year and he'll ride it out.
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#39 Guest_blurjose_*

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 11:23 AM

I was pretty confident Pedro would be who he is: frustrating and sub-par (especially for first base). He's no surprise. I was also pretty certain that J-Hey would regress some. That's no surprise.

For me the big disappointments have been White Walker and Polanski. I thought the latter would make some improvements and the former would remain Mr Steady.
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Posted 26 June 2015 - 11:38 AM

View PostJeff King, on 26 June 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Agreed. But that lies more in NEAL's decision to not try to upgrade at 1B before the season, than it does with Pedro's performance.

That doesn't change the fact that we need better production from his position. But I don't think NEAL is going to attempt to upgrade 1B. He went with Pedro for the year and he'll ride it out.


hmm, so after the past couple posts I figured I would wander over to fangraphs and see who was ahead of Pedro in wRC+ that was available. And really, it doesn't seem like much. The majority of those players were locked in by their current teams. Adam Lind was available and got traded for Marco Estrada. The Pirates may not have had a pitcher like Estrada available (unless you think Morton or Locke were equivalents) but could have included a better prospect.

So are any available now or in the future? Maybe Edwin Encarnacion? He's similar to Pedro but more consistent and a better track record and possibly slightly less of a butcher on defense?
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