Pittsburgh Pirates: Pens offseason thread - Pittsburgh Pirates

Jump to content

  • 54 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Pens offseason thread Might as well... Rate Topic: -----

#41 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

  • WiH owns me
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40,101
  • Joined: 16-November 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2015 - 12:32 PM

I don't know that they have "a couple" of potential top-six guys coming up through the system, at least that will be capable of filling that role this season. They have one (Kapanen). And I'm sorry, but simply drafting him was not enough to address the team wide problem of getting younger and faster. They were one of the oldest teams in the league this season and have several players coming back under contract on the wrong side of 30. They really don't have anybody that is still in their peak production years as a forward.

Those free agent signings a year ago were all fine, but there's a good chance all of them are leaving this summer and they not only have to repeat that success, they still have multiple holes in their top-six. Not to mention the fact that Paul Martin is also likely gone.

You can break down each individual move all you want, the bottom line is that one year later they are facing the exact same issues they faced a year ago.
0

#42 User is offline   oblongatta 

  • Supreme Overlord of the Universe
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 15,483
  • Joined: 17-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:a bar
  • Interests:Whisper Fighting

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:07 PM

View PostDoctorJohnnyFever, on 30 April 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

I don't know that they have "a couple" of potential top-six guys coming up through the system, at least that will be capable of filling that role this season. They have one (Kapanen). And I'm sorry, but simply drafting him was not enough to address the team wide problem of getting younger and faster. They were one of the oldest teams in the league this season and have several players coming back under contract on the wrong side of 30. They really don't have anybody that is still in their peak production years as a forward.

Those free agent signings a year ago were all fine, but there's a good chance all of them are leaving this summer and they not only have to repeat that success, they still have multiple holes in their top-six. Not to mention the fact that Paul Martin is also likely gone.

You can break down each individual move all you want, the bottom line is that one year later they are facing the exact same issues they faced a year ago.


Well I was counting Sundqvist as the other person in a couple. Maybe he projects as a two-way center and that's why you don't view him as a top 6?

And, I'm not disagreeing with anything you said. But I'm fine with building the team on a yearly basis until the Crosby-Malkin wheels fall off. They're basically limited to the draft to build the future and they don't have many picks. Outside of Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Fleury, who do they have to trade for a "ready now young player?" The only people they have are other young players that they are counting on or guys they won't net much in return.

And I'm not sure it is (well was) a team wide problem of younger and faster, it's a forward problem of younger and faster. There was no problem with team speed on the defense until they lost 4 players to injuries and one to a trade. Of course now with being saddled with Scuderi and Lovejoy, instead of Despres, Martin and Ehrhof, they've created a defense speed problem.



I think you're mistaking what the problems were the Pens felt they had in Shero. I think they felt he didn't build a team that could win in the playoffs. I'm not sure they cared about the minors or the salary cap issues. I believe Rutherford was tasked with building a team to win in the playoffs. The sad thing is I think he did that if they were healthy. The bottom line is I think you might be evaluating his performance on things that were lower priority for the ownership (i.e., rebuilding and salary cap relief).
You're pretty on the inside,
That's better than not pretty at all,
You're pretty on the inside,
Too bad I'm an outside kinda pretty guy.
0

#43 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

  • WiH owns me
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40,101
  • Joined: 16-November 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:10 PM

View Postoblongatta, on 30 April 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Well I was counting Sundqvist as the other person in a couple. Maybe he projects as a two-way center and that's why you don't view him as a top 6?

And, I'm not disagreeing with anything you said. But I'm fine with building the team on a yearly basis until the Crosby-Malkin wheels fall off. They're basically limited to the draft to build the future and they don't have many picks. Outside of Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Fleury, who do they have to trade for a "ready now young player?" The only people they have are other young players that they are counting on or guys they won't net much in return.

And I'm not sure it is (well was) a team wide problem of younger and faster, it's a forward problem of younger and faster. There was no problem with team speed on the defense until they lost 4 players to injuries and one to a trade. Of course now with being saddled with Scuderi and Lovejoy, instead of Despres, Martin and Ehrhof, they've created a defense speed problem.



I think you're mistaking what the problems were the Pens felt they had in Shero. I think they felt he didn't build a team that could win in the playoffs. I'm not sure they cared about the minors or the salary cap issues. I believe Rutherford was tasked with building a team to win in the playoffs. The sad thing is I think he did that if they were healthy. The bottom line is I think you might be evaluating his performance on things that were lower priority for the ownership (i.e., rebuilding and salary cap relief).


To me, getting younger and faster is a part of building a team to win in the playoffs, not rebuilding.
0

#44 Guest_Utterly Irredeemable_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:14 PM

View PostDoctorJohnnyFever, on 30 April 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

I don't know that they have "a couple" of potential top-six guys coming up through the system, at least that will be capable of filling that role this season. They have one (Kapanen). And I'm sorry, but simply drafting him was not enough to address the team wide problem of getting younger and faster. They were one of the oldest teams in the league this season and have several players coming back under contract on the wrong side of 30. They really don't have anybody that is still in their peak production years as a forward.

Those free agent signings a year ago were all fine, but there's a good chance all of them are leaving this summer and they not only have to repeat that success, they still have multiple holes in their top-six. Not to mention the fact that Paul Martin is also likely gone.

You can break down each individual move all you want, the bottom line is that one year later they are facing the exact same issues they faced a year ago.


The bottom line is that Shero absolutely decimated the internal options at forward through trades and poor drafting and you can't fix everything at once. I've asked you 8 times what exactly it is they should have done last summer and who they should have gone after that was available (and using what as a trade chip) given their cap situation, and you always duck the question. It is easy to criticize, but what was the alternative?
0

#45 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

  • WiH owns me
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40,101
  • Joined: 16-November 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:16 PM

View PostUtterly Irredeemable, on 30 April 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

The bottom line is that Shero absolutely decimated the internal options at forward through trades and poor drafting and you can't fix everything at once. I've asked you 8 times what exactly it is they should have done last summer and who they should have gone after that was available (and using what as a trade chip) given their cap situation, and you always duck the question. It is easy to criticize, but what was the alternative?


No, you can't fix everything at once. Unfortunately he didn't fix anything.

Do you really want to go over this again? Just because you don't like my answer or dismiss doesn't mean I'm ducking the question.
0

#46 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

  • WiH owns me
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40,101
  • Joined: 16-November 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:17 PM

It's amazing that a guy who in his GM career has made the playoffs six times in 21 years has such hardcore defenders.
1

#47 User is offline   ecbenito 

  • Veteran Manager
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 26,748
  • Joined: 17-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:with the outlaws

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:20 PM

View PostDoctorJohnnyFever, on 30 April 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

No, you can't fix everything at once. Unfortunately he didn't fix anything.

Do you really want to go over this again? Just because you don't like my answer or dismiss doesn't mean I'm ducking the question.

it's not that people didn't (or don't like) your answer. you never really gave one. It's easy to say that he should have gotten more for Neal. Great. What should he have gotten? You may of may not have liked the free agent signings last summer. Great. Who would you have liked them to go after instead while complying to the cap? I'm not trying to be an asshole (although I probably am), but I'm really curious as to what your plan would have been.
0

#48 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

  • WiH owns me
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40,101
  • Joined: 16-November 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:23 PM

View Postecbenito, on 30 April 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

it's not that people didn't (or don't like) your answer. you never really gave one. It's easy to say that he should have gotten more for Neal. Great. What should he have gotten? You may of may not have liked the free agent signings last summer. Great. Who would you have liked them to go after instead while complying to the cap?


I would have liked them to try and shop him around more to some of the teams that would have been willing to make offers (of which there were several) instead of taking one of the first offers they received which did nothing to solve any of their problems and was nothing more than a lateral move.

I actually didn't mind the free agent signings for what they were, but they're still IN THE SAME POSITION THIS OFFSEASON. Which is the overall point. They're not in any better of a position than they were a year ago.
0

#49 User is offline   oblongatta 

  • Supreme Overlord of the Universe
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 15,483
  • Joined: 17-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:a bar
  • Interests:Whisper Fighting

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:29 PM

View PostDoctorJohnnyFever, on 30 April 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

To me, getting younger and faster is a part of building a team to win in the playoffs, not rebuilding.


well, it is one way.

I've said it before. I think it was a conscious decision to build a team that had team speed on defense and use forwards that played in front of the net, were physical and good two way players. It's a way that might have worked. But it didn't. We just don't know because the critical fast defense was gone. I will agree that there is no way to win with a team built on those forwards in front of a slow old defense.

You know who was young and fast? Jason Megna, Brian Gibbons, Zach Sill... A team like that is going nowhere. It'd be great of they had a whole bunch of young and fast players, but they have to be skilled. A young and fast player that is skilled? That costs a lot. I'm not sure how they could easily get them.


I'm not enamored with Rutherford. That Despres trade was enough for me to be happy if he was gone. I'm just arguing that he was tasked with building a team to win in the playoffs. In theory I think he did. Now if you want to say that he failed at that task (which is also true) and he should be gone for that reason? Well I'm fine with that too.
You're pretty on the inside,
That's better than not pretty at all,
You're pretty on the inside,
Too bad I'm an outside kinda pretty guy.
0

#50 Guest_Utterly Irredeemable_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:36 PM

View Postecbenito, on 30 April 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

it's not that people didn't (or don't like) your answer. you never really gave one. It's easy to say that he should have gotten more for Neal. Great. What should he have gotten? You may of may not have liked the free agent signings last summer. Great. Who would you have liked them to go after instead while complying to the cap? I'm not trying to be an asshole (although I probably am), but I'm really curious as to what your plan would have been.


This. It's the same answer he gave when asked "how do you fit Mike Wallace under the salary cap" when he was adamant they re-sign him..."just figure it out."
0

#51 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

  • WiH owns me
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40,101
  • Joined: 16-November 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:37 PM

View PostUtterly Irredeemable, on 30 April 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

This. It's the same answer he gave when asked "how do you fit Mike Wallace under the salary cap" when he was adamant they re-sign him..."just figure it out."


Except it's nothing at all like that.
-2

#52 Guest_Utterly Irredeemable_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:37 PM

View PostDoctorJohnnyFever, on 30 April 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

It's amazing that a guy who in his GM career has made the playoffs six times in 21 years has such hardcore defenders.


Just spitballin' here, but maybe people recognize that the main reasons for this team's early exit and struggles were (a) injuries and (b) Shero's shitastic track record of drafting forwards?
0

#53 User is offline   oblongatta 

  • Supreme Overlord of the Universe
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 15,483
  • Joined: 17-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:a bar
  • Interests:Whisper Fighting

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:39 PM

getting off the gm evaluation topic for a minute...

Since we have Perron next season, what are we to think of him? I expected him to be better... a lot better. How much was due to an injury? Is he still a top 6 guy? I think there was a consensus that he was the better player between him and Hornqvist. After watching last season, I wouldn't trade Hornqvist for Perron even if you threw in a James Neal. (see what I did there?)
You're pretty on the inside,
That's better than not pretty at all,
You're pretty on the inside,
Too bad I'm an outside kinda pretty guy.
0

#54 Guest_Utterly Irredeemable_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:40 PM

View PostDoctorJohnnyFever, on 30 April 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Except it's nothing at all like that.


Then what would you have had him do (other than shop Neal further, which undoubtedly would have produced a Seguin/Benn or Hall/Eberle or Huberdeau/Barkov package from some team)? You liked the UFA signings. You liked the fact he let a bunch of dead weight walk. He didn't extend anyone other than Fleury, and that deal was basically reasonable. What would he have done back in July given the cap constraints he was facing?
0

#55 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

  • WiH owns me
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40,101
  • Joined: 16-November 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:40 PM

View PostUtterly Irredeemable, on 30 April 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Just spitballin' here, but maybe people recognize that the main reasons for this team's early exit and struggles were (a) injuries and (b) Shero's shitastic track record of drafting forwards?


No fucking shit. And I've never argued otherwise. You're really pulling a Winter every time you try to argue that I don't acknowledge how much Ray Shero fucked up (especially when I was one of the first fucking people to point out how shitty he was doing). But maybe people should also start to realize that Jim Rutherford really doesn't fucking know what he's doing and isn't making things any better.
0

#56 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

  • WiH owns me
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40,101
  • Joined: 16-November 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:43 PM

I know of at least two teams, one of which was in Nashville's division, that were prepared to offer more than Nashville did for Neal and either 1) Never had an opportunity to do so, and 2) Never heard back on their offers. One of them offered a player tha ended up scoring as many goals as Hornqvist did while still on an entry level contract.

Quote

He didn't extend anyone other than Fleury, and that deal was basically reasonable.


And Brandon Sutter. And Nick Spaling, who he never should have acquired in the first place.
0

#57 Guest_Utterly Irredeemable_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:45 PM

View PostDoctorJohnnyFever, on 30 April 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

I know of at least two teams, one of which was in Nashville's division, that were prepared to offer more than Nashville did for Neal and either 1) Never had an opportunity to do so, and 2) Never heard back on their offers. One of them offered a player tha ended up scoring as many goals as Hornqvist did while still on an entry level contract.



And Brandon Sutter. And Nick Spaling, who he never should have acquired in the first place.


Awesome. Who?

He didn't extend those guys. He signed the team's own RFA's.
0

#58 Guest_Utterly Irredeemable_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:46 PM

View PostDoctorJohnnyFever, on 30 April 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

No fucking shit. And I've never argued otherwise. You're really pulling a Winter every time you try to argue that I don't acknowledge how much Ray Shero fucked up (especially when I was one of the first fucking people to point out how shitty he was doing). But maybe people should also start to realize that Jim Rutherford really doesn't fucking know what he's doing and isn't making things any better.


Since you've repeatedly ducked the question of what he should have done instead of what he did (other than get ALL THE GOOD CHEAP FAST YOUNG PLAYERS for Neal), maybe you don't either?
0

#59 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

  • WiH owns me
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40,101
  • Joined: 16-November 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:46 PM

View PostUtterly Irredeemable, on 30 April 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

Awesome. Who?

He didn't extend those guys. He signed the team's own RFA's.


I'm not going to reveal names, they were off the record conversations and you never know who is reading this board.

And there is nothing that says you have to extend your RFA's. Or trade for RFA's coming off of career years that are due for significant raises.
0

#60 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

  • WiH owns me
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 40,101
  • Joined: 16-November 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:49 PM

Speaking of ducking questions: What has Jim Rutherford done to make the Pittsburgh Penguins a better hockey team than the day he took over?
0

Share this topic:


  • 54 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic