Pittsburgh Pirates: 2015 Season Thread - Pittsburgh Pirates

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2015 Season Thread General MLB Thread Rate Topic: -----

#641 User is offline   Jeff King 

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 11:07 AM

View PostPenguin, on 17 June 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Holt had 59 AB's in 2013. Over the last two years, Holt has a higher WAR.

As I said, we'll see if Holt can keep producing like this. But I will take a productive position player over a productive reliever any day.


While that's a good rule of thumb, you have to look at the specifics. What would we do with Holt on our current roster? Is he really much better than JHay or Kang? Perhaps, but we have a handful of guys that can play multiple positions competently and hit.

The trade was obviously made a few years ago when the rosters were different. But considering how many players we have that are somewhat similar to Holt, this trade worked out just fine, in my opinion.
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#642 User is offline   PSU4Lyfe 

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 11:16 AM

View PostJeff King, on 17 June 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

While that's a good rule of thumb, you have to look at the specifics. What would we do with Holt on our current roster? Is he really much better than JHay or Kang? Perhaps, but we have a handful of guys that can play multiple positions competently and hit.

The trade was obviously made a few years ago when the rosters were different. But considering how many players we have that are somewhat similar to Holt, this trade worked out just fine, in my opinion.


Yeah we essentially ended up with Brock Holt and Melancon. So the net-net leans in our favor.!
Disclaimer: This post in no way supports nor defends the signing of Rod Barajas.
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#643 User is offline   ecbenito 

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 11:39 AM

so Adam Wainwright wants to make a comeback and pitch this season after tearing his Achilles back at the end of April. Here's hoping he does and promptly blows something else out and misses 2016
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#644 User is offline   Gideon Clarke 

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 05:57 PM

Regarding the Brock Holt trade, I think there are signs that the Pirates suck at scouting their own minor-league players. The Pirates have a second baseman now who has been a key cog in a competitive team for the past three year, who was expected to be the same this year. It's also expected that at some point in the near future, their second baseman will price himself out of Bob Nutting's pathetic budget. So we know that the team needs to develop a second baseman.

In that time, the Pirates have had three second base prospects of note, and have traded away two of them. They kept the one who was most highly-regarded nationally. As it is turning out, he is also likely to be the worst of the three at the major league level. In other words, Huntington's internal scouting is comparable to the national media's minor-league scouting, and he's worse at scouting his own prospects than other teams are at scouting his prospects.

That ain't a good thing.
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#645 Guest_Utterly Irredeemable_*

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 06:11 PM

View PostGideon Clarke, on 17 June 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Regarding the Brock Holt trade, I think there are signs that the Pirates suck at scouting their own minor-league players. The Pirates have a second baseman now who has been a key cog in a competitive team for the past three year, who was expected to be the same this year. It's also expected that at some point in the near future, their second baseman will price himself out of Bob Nutting's pathetic budget. So we know that the team needs to develop a second baseman.

In that time, the Pirates have had three second base prospects of note, and have traded away two of them. They kept the one who was most highly-regarded nationally. As it is turning out, he is also likely to be the worst of the three at the major league level. In other words, Huntington's internal scouting is comparable to the national media's minor-league scouting, and he's worse at scouting his own prospects than other teams are at scouting his prospects.

That ain't a good thing.


The Pirates traded Brock Holt in December of 2012, at which time they had Neil Walker (who was and probably still is a superior player) under control for another FOUR years. Hell, until 2012, Holt wasn't even a top 20 prospect in the system. If one wants to criticize the Pirates for preferring Hanson to Herrera, so be it, but that also suggests that they could have gotten Byrd for Hanson, something we don't know. The idea that this was some sort of scouting failing is beyond a reach. Oh, and they also got a guy who's been one of the best relief pitchers in baseball the last 2 1/2 years as part of the deal.

The Pirates are 219-169 since the start of the 2013 season despite being in the bottom 5 of payroll all 3 seasons, yet people continue to act like Huntington is a clown. He certainly can be criticized for some things, but bashing him for trading Brock Holt FOUR YEARS before Neil Walker was set to be a free agent and when Holt was a non-prospect isn't one of them.
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#646 User is offline   DoctorJohnnyFever 

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 06:19 PM

I'm pretty sure the Rays are going with the strategy Lou Piniella once talked about and are starting the game with a relief pitcher so they can pinch hit in his spot early in the game if needed, and then put the "starter" in the game later.

At least that's what it sounded like on the broadcast.
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#647 User is offline   Gideon Clarke 

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 06:31 PM

View PostDoctorJohnnyFever, on 17 June 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure the Rays are going with the strategy Lou Piniella once talked about and are starting the game with a relief pitcher so they can pinch hit in his spot early in the game if needed, and then put the "starter" in the game later.

At least that's what it sounded like on the broadcast.

Earl Weaver would sometimes designate the previous day's starter as the DH, so that he could insert the correct side of the platoon in that spot if the opposing starter got injured or chased before the Orioles batted through the lineup.
"You know, I wish I could go back in time and kick the shit out of the idiot who decided to make kickers part of football."

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 09:05 PM

@jaysonst: Out goes Raburn. In comes David Murphy. We'd gone 25 years since a team pitched 2 position players in a 9-inning game. Now 2 days in a row!
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#649 User is offline   Trey_Beamon 

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 09:14 PM

View PostUtterly Irredeemable, on 17 June 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

@jaysonst: Out goes Raburn. In comes David Murphy. We'd gone 25 years since a team pitched 2 position players in a 9-inning game. Now 2 days in a row!



Kris Bryant hit a grand slam. It's 17-0.

I hit a Molina.
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#650 User is offline   silverspring 

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 09:19 PM

View PostTrey_Beamon, on 17 June 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

Kris Bryant hit a grand slam. It's 17-0.

I hit a Molina.

The slow one or the also slow one or the slowest one?
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#651 User is offline   donwengert4life 

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 09:54 PM

View PostUtterly Irredeemable, on 17 June 2015 - 09:05 PM, said:

@jaysonst: Out goes Raburn. In comes David Murphy. We'd gone 25 years since a team pitched 2 position players in a 9-inning game. Now 2 days in a row!


I hate when teams do that. Yes it is lopsided game but it makes a mockery out the game. You have 7 or 8 pitchers in the bullpen, you should be able to designate one jobber whose job it is to mop up in those situations.
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#652 User is offline   donwengert4life 

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 10:40 PM

Wandy Rodriguez is out-pitching Kershaw right now.

What happened to Kershaw? He has been very mediocre this year.
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#653 User is offline   buckeyebucco 

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 12:58 AM

View Postdonwengert4life, on 17 June 2015 - 10:40 PM, said:

Wandy Rodriguez is out-pitching Kershaw right now.

What happened to Kershaw? He has been very mediocre this year.

I had absolutely no idea he was still in the league
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#654 User is offline   Gideon Clarke 

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 01:07 AM

View Postbuckeyebucco, on 18 June 2015 - 12:58 AM, said:

I had absolutely no idea he was still in the league

Wandy or Kershaw?
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#655 User is offline   buckeyebucco 

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 01:57 AM

View PostGideon Clarke, on 18 June 2015 - 01:07 AM, said:

Wandy or Kershaw?

Obviously wandy
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#656 User is offline   Gideon Clarke 

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 02:22 AM

View Postbuckeyebucco, on 18 June 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

Obviously wandy

Between this thread and the ex-Pirates thread, there have been a few Wandy updates this season.
"You know, I wish I could go back in time and kick the shit out of the idiot who decided to make kickers part of football."

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#657 User is offline   mvk112 

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 05:56 AM

View PostUtterly Irredeemable, on 17 June 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

The Pirates traded Brock Holt in December of 2012, at which time they had Neil Walker (who was and probably still is a superior player) under control for another FOUR years. Hell, until 2012, Holt wasn't even a top 20 prospect in the system. If one wants to criticize the Pirates for preferring Hanson to Herrera, so be it, but that also suggests that they could have gotten Byrd for Hanson, something we don't know. The idea that this was some sort of scouting failing is beyond a reach. Oh, and they also got a guy who's been one of the best relief pitchers in baseball the last 2 1/2 years as part of the deal.

The Pirates are 219-169 since the start of the 2013 season despite being in the bottom 5 of payroll all 3 seasons, yet people continue to act like Huntington is a clown. He certainly can be criticized for some things, but bashing him for trading Brock Holt FOUR YEARS before Neil Walker was set to be a free agent and when Holt was a non-prospect isn't one of them.


Plus I think there is still a decent shot that Hanson winds up better than (or at least as good as) Herrera. They also have Max Moroff doing really well in AA. He's doing better than Holt did his first time in AA and about the same as Holt's second time through.

Melancon has been a key part of two playoff teams. Brock Holt is a utility player on one of the worst eight teams in baseball the past two years. Are we really concerned that Brock Holt isn't going to be able to replace Neil Walker in 2017?

That is the very definition of people just bitching to bitch.
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#658 User is offline   tobaccoroad 

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 08:19 AM

View Postmvk112, on 18 June 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

Plus I think there is still a decent shot that Hanson winds up better than (or at least as good as) Herrera. They also have Max Moroff doing really well in AA. He's doing better than Holt did his first time in AA and about the same as Holt's second time through.

Melancon has been a key part of two playoff teams. Brock Holt is a utility player on one of the worst eight teams in baseball the past two years. Are we really concerned that Brock Holt isn't going to be able to replace Neil Walker in 2017?

That is the very definition of people just bitching to bitch.


All of this. Holt is a nice little played but it isn't as if we got nothing for him. Melancon has played a bigger role for this team over the past two years than Holt would have.

Shit. Holt would likely have still been in AAA if he was still here.

Shoes
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#659 User is offline   PSU4Lyfe 

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 08:34 AM

View Postmvk112, on 18 June 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

Plus I think there is still a decent shot that Hanson winds up better than (or at least as good as) Herrera. They also have Max Moroff doing really well in AA. He's doing better than Holt did his first time in AA and about the same as Holt's second time through.

Melancon has been a key part of two playoff teams. Brock Holt is a utility player on one of the worst eight teams in baseball the past two years. Are we really concerned that Brock Holt isn't going to be able to replace Neil Walker in 2017?

That is the very definition of people just bitching to bitch.


Plus the Pirates got Byrd for Herrera. You can't just trade a scrub prospect and expect to make a big deadline acquisition. Byrd was one of if not the hottest RH bat that was traded that year if I'm not mistaken. You can lament the trade, but Marlon Byrd was a main cog in that team pushing the Cardinals to the brink in that playoff run. You can't ask Neal to make the team better and then still get mad when he makes a fair trade.
Disclaimer: This post in no way supports nor defends the signing of Rod Barajas.
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#660 User is offline   Gideon Clarke 

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 08:43 AM

View PostPSU4Lyfe, on 18 June 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

Plus the Pirates got Byrd for Herrera. You can't just trade a scrub prospect and expect to make a big deadline acquisition. Byrd was one of if not the hottest RH bat that was traded that year if I'm not mistaken. You can lament the trade, but Marlon Byrd was a main cog in that team pushing the Cardinals to the brink in that playoff run. You can't ask Neal to make the team better and then still get mad when he makes a fair trade.

I'm not mad that they traded a second baseman for Byrd. I'm just mad that they traded the wrong one. It shows that other teams know Neal's prospects better than Neal does.


And no way Hanson is a better player than Herrera. Herrara's bat has been major league average at age 21, and before that he was hitting the cover off the ball in the minors. Hanson is a year older, has never even been to the majors, and has minor-league numbers that would be decent if they were major league numbers. The walks have dried up. His strikeouts have come down a little bit, but not as dramatically as the walks.
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