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Pirates off season thread Because we're still a Pirates board? Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   oblongatta 

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 11:59 AM

Trading Cutch would be the height of stupidity. His contract is still a bargain. And after a horrible start to the season he seemed to have corrected whatever was wrong. His last three months are on par with his production in the last several years.

I just don't see how a trade of McCutchen would benefit this team at all.
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#22 User is offline   NYPirate 

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 12:03 PM

View Postoblongatta, on 05 October 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Trading Cutch would be the height of stupidity. His contract is still a bargain. And after a horrible start to the season he seemed to have corrected whatever was wrong. His last three months are on par with his production in the last several years.

I just don't see how a trade of McCutchen would benefit this team at all.

It benefits Bob Nutting's wallet. That's all that clearly matters.
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#23 User is offline   oblongatta 

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 12:10 PM

View PostNYPirate, on 05 October 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

It benefits Bob Nutting's wallet. That's all that clearly matters.


yes. And somehow they're getting the lemmings to just keep saying, what can we get for trading cutch? It's inevitable so lets talk about it. Instead every single comment should be this is a stupid decision and fuck you for your cost cutting ways.

Why trade cutch? is he overpaid? nope. is he at the height of his value? nope. did he finish poorly? nope. is he a clubhouse problem? nope. is he at the end of his career old? nope.

all they got is that he is a defensive liability in CF.
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#24 User is offline   NCBuccofan 

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 12:44 PM

View Postoblongatta, on 05 October 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Trading Cutch would be the height of stupidity. His contract is still a bargain. And after a horrible start to the season he seemed to have corrected whatever was wrong. His last three months are on par with his production in the last several years.

I just don't see how a trade of McCutchen would benefit this team at all.


How were the last three months on par with his production in the last several years? September was the only month the entire season that he was even close.

June and July were his worst months, not April. If anything, his April was fairly normal and no reason for alarm. Normally, he comes out and murders the ball in May to the end of the season, which did not happen this year.

If you believe the Sept production was a sign that he was hurt most of the year or whatever, they would be insane to trade him since they will never get a proper return. IMO, he is not getting paid much in baseball terms, so it would be silly to bet against it, but the Pirates are cheap, adverse to any risk. They would rather have a AAAA nobody making $1 mil than a guy with talent making $10 mil.

Of course McCutchen was also really bad in CF. If they cannot get him to move without causing other problems on the team, it might be better to remove him from the roster.
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#25 User is offline   ECBucs 

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 01:08 PM

View Postoblongatta, on 05 October 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Trading Cutch would be the height of stupidity. His contract is still a bargain. And after a horrible start to the season he seemed to have corrected whatever was wrong. His last three months are on par with his production in the last several years.

I just don't see how a trade of McCutchen would benefit this team at all.



Sentence in bold explains why it is likely to happen.
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#26 User is offline   oblongatta 

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 01:58 PM

View PostNCBuccofan, on 05 October 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

How were the last three months on par with his production in the last several years? September was the only month the entire season that he was even close.

June and July were his worst months, not April. If anything, his April was fairly normal and no reason for alarm. Normally, he comes out and murders the ball in May to the end of the season, which did not happen this year.

If you believe the Sept production was a sign that he was hurt most of the year or whatever, they would be insane to trade him since they will never get a proper return. IMO, he is not getting paid much in baseball terms, so it would be silly to bet against it, but the Pirates are cheap, adverse to any risk. They would rather have a AAAA nobody making $1 mil than a guy with talent making $10 mil.

Of course McCutchen was also really bad in CF. If they cannot get him to move without causing other problems on the team, it might be better to remove him from the roster.


my bad. I had done a quick check on baseball reference and looked at Aug to October, but yes since October was only 2 days that is two months. Still 2 months of an .852 OPS and 120+ OPS+ are consistent with previous production. Perhaps more importantly, his walk and strikeout rates were normal and they were waaay off in June and July. Even for good players on a downswing, they shouldn't be that much worse. Clearly something was wrong.

Once again, if anything, he is a great bet for a bounceback year. That's usually the kind of player the Pirates gamble on. There is no reason to trade him. Ironically, the Pirates are so risk adverse that even at his "low risk" contract, they wouldn't trade for him from another team unless that team was eating part of his salary. I'd be willing to bet that there are 29 teams that wouldn't consider trading him.
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#27 User is offline   NCBuccofan 

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 02:20 PM

View Postoblongatta, on 05 October 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

my bad. I had done a quick check on baseball reference and looked at Aug to October, but yes since October was only 2 days that is two months. Still 2 months of an .852 OPS and 120+ OPS+ are consistent with previous production. Perhaps more importantly, his walk and strikeout rates were normal and they were waaay off in June and July. Even for good players on a downswing, they shouldn't be that much worse. Clearly something was wrong.

Once again, if anything, he is a great bet for a bounceback year. That's usually the kind of player the Pirates gamble on. There is no reason to trade him. Ironically, the Pirates are so risk adverse that even at his "low risk" contract, they wouldn't trade for him from another team unless that team was eating part of his salary. I'd be willing to bet that there are 29 teams that wouldn't consider trading him.


Well a 120 OPS is a good bit off from his performance over 2012-2015, but the trend for the end of the season was a positive.

But yea, I completely agree he should be kept because the downside of him not bouncing back is not significant. What the hell are they going to spend those savings on? Not a better player. They used the Liriano money to sign Freese, which will be a mistake, and wasted $300k to let Vogelsong start yet again.

We already saw them make a stupid move last year when they traded Walker for no reason. And to make it worse, they added a shitty pitcher in an offseason full of available arms.
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#28 User is offline   coolpapacole 

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 08:01 PM

How is he out? I don't see that at all.
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#29 User is offline   Dunc Wilson 

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 04:49 AM

THE CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!

Per MLB Trade Rumors:

The Pirates announced that they’ve acquired right-hander Brady Dragmire from the Blue Jays in exchange for cash. In order to clear a spot on the 40-man roster, lefty Phil Coke has been designated for assignment. Toronto designated Dragmire for assignment last week to add to its roster in the wake of Joaquin Benoit’s injury.

The 23-year-old Dragmire logged a 4.38 ERA with 5.1 K/9 against 3.5 BB/9 in 72 innings at Double-A New Hampshire this season. While those numbers don’t exactly stand out, the Bucs have a history of targeting ground-ball pitchers, and Dragmire excelled in that aspect, recording a stellar 63.6 percent ground-ball rate in the minors this year. That factor, as well as his relative youth, likely made him an appealing target for Pittsburgh.
Kind of makes this gem seem kind of silly now ..... oh, wait, it was silly then ............

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From the fertile imagination of bradlej31:

I really don't think they'll make either a qualifying offer.

I believe both signed in 2012 under the pretense of the Pirates not offering a qualifying offer.   

If you think that it's stupid then do you think it's stupid if they would've signed with someone else?  I personally think is genius because I don't think any other team has started doing that yet to attract FAs.

After Martin leaves without a qualifying offer it will become pretty obvious though.  I hope they sign another similar type free-agent or two before they don't qualify Martin.  It's their little secret right now but it'll get out here in two months.
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#30 User is offline   NCBuccofan 

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 08:24 AM

View PostDunc Wilson, on 06 October 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

THE CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!

Per MLB Trade Rumors:

The Pirates announced that they’ve acquired right-hander Brady Dragmire from the Blue Jays in exchange for cash. In order to clear a spot on the 40-man roster, lefty Phil Coke has been designated for assignment. Toronto designated Dragmire for assignment last week to add to its roster in the wake of Joaquin Benoit’s injury.

The 23-year-old Dragmire logged a 4.38 ERA with 5.1 K/9 against 3.5 BB/9 in 72 innings at Double-A New Hampshire this season. While those numbers don’t exactly stand out, the Bucs have a history of targeting ground-ball pitchers, and Dragmire excelled in that aspect, recording a stellar 63.6 percent ground-ball rate in the minors this year. That factor, as well as his relative youth, likely made him an appealing target for Pittsburgh.


A.J. Schugel looked like a terrible pitcher and turned out to be a solid bullpen arm. But that is terrible pitching in AA not AAA. Jared Lakind would be a better use of a 40 man spot, although I would guess this guy is sent thru waivers and does not last long on the roster.
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#31 User is offline   jestor92 

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 08:56 AM

They're putting the Liriano savings to good use.
Jose Tabata, Pedro Alvarez, and Andrew McCutchen are the new Jason Kendall, Brian Giles, and Kevin Young (in his prime) players that are good, but surrounded by crap which will make them losers.
Who needs a good team on the field when you have fireworks and bobbleheads!
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#32 User is offline   LegendaryLloyd 

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 10:39 AM

I wonder, If we had good ownership and NH didn't have such a putrid record w/ trades, would the possibility of trading McCutchen be seen in a different light?

I don't trust Neal to make a good trade, but I'm also trying to figure out what skill commands $14m. He plays slower than he actually is on the basepaths, doesn't play good defense, average hitter for average and shows good power (generated by quick twich bat speed=declines w/ age). He doesn't have a body frame where he can get huge and hit 40hrs as he ages--5'10 and fast doesn't age as well. Take away the name and the face of the franchise and that's what I see. But his name and face are also very, very important to the fan base. The only "winning" situation here is if we hold onto him this offseason and he gets lucky and bounces back.

Maybe the compromise play here is to give him another season to figure it out. But even with a bounceback 2017 season I'd be hesitant to give him another big contract when that is brought to the table.
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#33 User is offline   coolpapacole 

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 01:15 PM

The main reason the Pirates turned around the losing streak was Cutch becoming one of the best players in MLB. Our only chance to win it all was to ride him. I don't see this team competing unless Cutch is great again. No way the Pirates get enough for him in a trade to make them competitive again. I say we hang onto him and hope he returns to his previous level.
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#34 User is offline   Dunc Wilson 

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:48 AM

View PostNCBuccofan, on 06 October 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

A.J. Schugel looked like a terrible pitcher and turned out to be a solid bullpen arm. But that is terrible pitching in AA not AAA. Jared Lakind would be a better use of a 40 man spot, although I would guess this guy is sent thru waivers and does not last long on the roster.


Schugel was a flyer taken on a more advanced level, he had at least surfaced in the big leagues with Arizona. This guy is just AA chum. I agree with your point that he probably won't stick on the 40 man for long, but why acquire him at all (or Bostick for that matter). They added several fringe guys in September to the big league roster that had to be added to the 40 man. They've got guys on the 60 day DL that will have to be activated and the ever popular flood of prospects that will have to be added (a flood so mammoth that they had to off load McGuire and Ramirez).

So what's the point, for NH to show everyone he's out their working to make the club better? This pointless transaction surely doesn't do that.
Kind of makes this gem seem kind of silly now ..... oh, wait, it was silly then ............

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From the fertile imagination of bradlej31:

I really don't think they'll make either a qualifying offer.

I believe both signed in 2012 under the pretense of the Pirates not offering a qualifying offer.   

If you think that it's stupid then do you think it's stupid if they would've signed with someone else?  I personally think is genius because I don't think any other team has started doing that yet to attract FAs.

After Martin leaves without a qualifying offer it will become pretty obvious though.  I hope they sign another similar type free-agent or two before they don't qualify Martin.  It's their little secret right now but it'll get out here in two months.
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#35 User is online   Grey 

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Posted 07 October 2016 - 08:26 PM

Watching all these five out saves today by closers.

Didn't they get the memo from Hurdle that you just don't do that?
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#36 User is offline   Dale Berra's Nose 

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 06:06 AM

View PostGrey, on 07 October 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

Watching all these five out saves today by closers.

Didn't they get the memo from Hurdle that you just don't do that?

The interoffice mail takes a while to go from Elimination to Playoffs.
IS THIS THE GAME THREAD???
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#37 User is offline   Gideon Clarke 

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 07:10 AM

View PostDale Berra, on 08 October 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

View PostGrey, on 07 October 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

Watching all these five out saves today by closers.

Didn't they get the memo from Hurdle that you just don't do that?

The interoffice mail takes a while to go from Elimination to Playoffs.

If it doesn't arrive soon, some of these closers won't be rested for February!
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#38 User is offline   crosscuttersno1 

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 10:54 AM

Or using your closer in the fifth inning.
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#39 User is offline   NYPirate 

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 12:10 PM

When is the Bob Nutting "Grab em' by the pussy" video going to surface? We really need it. I hate this front office.
``We’ve got some holes we’re looking to fill. We don’t feel like we desperately have to do anything. We’re in a great spot to be in. If we can upgrade, outstanding. Upgrade at an appropriate acquisition cost, even better.’’
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#40 User is offline   crosscuttersno1 

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 12:22 PM

View PostNYPirate, on 08 October 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

When is the Bob Nutting "Grab em' by the pussy" video going to surface? We really need it. I hate this front office.

Like many republicans it wouldn't change a thing for many Pirates fans.
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