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Nyjer for Milledge - MLBTrade Rumors

#41 User is offline   GoBucs21 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 01:39 PM

QUOTE (Jwill55sk @ Jun 27 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I still say that NH would be insane not to deal Nyjer Morgan for Lastings Milledge straight up.

I'm not sure because Milledge's head makes him very high risk. I would have to ponder that deal straight up. Talent wist its a steal for the Pirates but bad behavior counts for something.

The Nationals need a legitimate everyday CFer. Right now, they are running Harris and Dukes out there. Either is decent in a pinch but not every day. Milledge just wasn't cutting it.

How about throwing in our head case, Ian Snell. That makes the deal head case for head case and Stammen for Morgan.

Milledge is as miscast in center as Morgan is in left. Milledge would be fine in left for the Pirates. It may help his offense to be out of center.

I'm just not sure that Milledge is enough, straight up for Morgan. The Pirates need some kind of payment for tolerance.
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#42 Guest_defdog_*

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 01:49 PM

All you guys who hated Nyjer, you've been wrong for 2 years now.

2 years of belittling us Nyjer fans as dipshits...

So what do we get?

a one line blurb by Penguin saying "I have to admit I was wrong"...

That's not enough.


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#43 User is offline   brendansdad 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 01:53 PM

QUOTE (defdog @ Jun 27 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All you guys who hated Nyjer, you've been wrong for 2 years now.

2 years of belittling us Nyjer fans as dipshits...

So what do we get?

a one line blurb by Penguin saying "I have to admit I was wrong"...

That's not enough.


What do you propose? Taking Penguins anal virginity?
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#44 User is offline   jeffr92 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 01:55 PM

QUOTE (Jwill55sk @ Jun 27 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I still say that NH would be insane not to deal Nyjer Morgan for Lastings Milledge straight up.

What do you see in Lastings Milledge? He's a trainwreck defensively, and not very good offensively. At this point, I think I'd rather have Jeff Francouer or Delmon Young (wow, what an awful outfield those three would make).
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#45 User is offline   GoBucs21 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:11 PM

QUOTE (defdog @ Jun 27 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All you guys who hated Nyjer, you've been wrong for 2 years now.

2 years of belittling us Nyjer fans as dipshits...

So what do we get?

a one line blurb by Penguin saying "I have to admit I was wrong"...

That's not enough.

He plays good defense and under performs offensively, I can't see what I was wrong about.

Call me confused if I'm supposed to get excited about a 1-2 hitter who can't get on base 35% of the time and can't use his speed effectively on the bases.

Am I supposed to be happy that, according to rumors, the Nationals offered a guy they are trying to give away. Is that the standard for evaluating Morgan? I bet you consider an olympic high jumper a success if he can clear a limbo bar.
"It's probably true. Trump probably did it, because people in power tend to think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want, and usually get away with it."
17 April 2017
Winter's response to my post that Trump may have raped a teenage girl.

Moral courage is a more rare commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence.
Robert F. Kennedy

Day of commemoration to honor the Victims of Bowling Green, April 1, 2017.
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#46 User is offline   cbh 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:29 PM

QUOTE (defdog @ Jun 27 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All you guys who hated Nyjer, you've been wrong for 2 years now.

2 years of belittling us Nyjer fans as dipshits...

So what do we get?

a one line blurb by Penguin saying "I have to admit I was wrong"...

That's not enough.


I'll admit that maybe the relationship between being a Nyjer Morgan fan and being a dipshit may have just been a coincidence.

You dipshit.
If I dared your son to do something, he'd be DEAD. I wouldn't do a wimpy dare, like "read a short story quickly". I'd have a real dare, like EAT A BAG OF FIRE!!!!"
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#47 User is offline   CRIMHEAD 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:30 PM

I'm in the JWill category. Why would we NOT want to make this deal?

Milledge may be a bit of a head case, but he's close to 5 years younger and already a better major league hitter. Morgan turns 29 in a week. It's not like he's suddenly going to get better - meaning he's not going to get on base, he's not going to hit for power, he's going to get picked off when he does get on base...at least Milledge has a CHANCE at being above average.
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#48 User is offline   jestor92 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:35 PM

I'd do the deal for Milledge alone. Nothing against Nyjer, but Milledge has been a CF for Washington so a move to LF wouldn't be to bad. He's got more power which we need, he's a helleva lot younger then Morgan which is a plus because there is room to grow, he's got more potential.

I don't think we're going to get a good offer on Nyjer, but if I was NH I'd be searching for a deal that brings us minor leaguer back instead of a bust of a former top prospect. Send Morgan off for a B- or C prospect or two, bring Garrett Jones up and use him in RF with Moss in LF.
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#49 User is offline   bucc-o-pain 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:41 PM

QUOTE (defdog @ Jun 27 2009, 02:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All you guys who hated Nyjer, you've been wrong for 2 years now.

2 years of belittling us Nyjer fans as dipshits...

So what do we get?

a one line blurb by Penguin saying "I have to admit I was wrong"...

That's not enough.


Saying that I wouldn't trade Nyjer for Milledge doesn't mean I think Nyjer is good, he is not. He has been ok, but far from good. I don't know why I am responding to you because you are too stupid to understand what I am saying anyway.
Utah, get me two.
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#50 User is offline   greybeard131 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:45 PM

QUOTE (brendansdad @ Jun 27 2009, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What do you propose? Taking Penguins anal virginity?

SHIT! THAT DISAPPEARED IN 1980!!!
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#51 User is offline   greybeard131 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:47 PM

QUOTE (jestor92 @ Jun 27 2009, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd do the deal for Milledge alone. Nothing against Nyjer, but Milledge has been a CF for Washington so a move to LF wouldn't be to bad. He's got more power which we need, he's a helleva lot younger then Morgan which is a plus because there is room to grow, he's got more potential.

I don't think we're going to get a good offer on Nyjer, but if I was NH I'd be searching for a deal that brings us minor leaguer back instead of a bust of a former top prospect. Send Morgan off for a B- or C prospect or two, bring Garrett Jones up and use him in RF with Moss in LF.

THE METS REJECTED THIS GUY!
THE NATS WANT TO JETTISON HIM! WHAT ARE WE? A JUNK YARD!!!
NO THANKS TO MILLY!!!
FIRE NEAL HUNTINGTON!
FIRE WINDBAG COONELLY!
FIRE CLINT HURDLE!
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#52 User is offline   coolpapacole 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:51 PM

QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Jun 27 2009, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What do you see in Lastings Milledge? He's a trainwreck defensively, and not very good offensively.


That is what I want to know too. Someone said he is already a better hitter than Nyjer, but that sure doesn't seem to be evident in my glance at his stats. Nyjer has the better EQA, OPS+, and so forth. The only thing that looks like a clear advantage for Milledge is that he is younger. Other than that, Nyjer has slightly better offensive numbers and is a better fielder. I am not claiming Nyjer is a great or even particularly good player. I just don't see what makes anyone think Lastings Milledge is a better one.
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#53 User is offline   Jwill55sk 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 02:59 PM

QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Jun 27 2009, 01:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What do you see in Lastings Milledge? He's a trainwreck defensively, and not very good offensively. At this point, I think I'd rather have Jeff Francouer or Delmon Young (wow, what an awful outfield those three would make).


Because I see relatively little in Nyjer Morgan.

Lastings Milledge might not be a can't miss or flawless prospect, in fact, pretty far from it. But he put up nice numbers in the minor leagues, was a really highly regarded prospect, and is still just 24 yearsold.

If the Pirates are looking at transactions from the concept of 'what will give us a better chance of being competitive in the next number of years', which I think most of us can agree they should be, I don't know how someone could spin the fact that Nyjer Morgan would be the answer as opposed to Lastings Milledge.

Sure, I'd like a young arm, but I'd deal Morgan for Milledge yesterday. I'd be upset if NH had the opportunity to do so and declined.
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#54 User is offline   bucc-o-pain 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 03:00 PM

Holy crap, Penguin just threw down in epic fashion. E-P-I-C.

Pjoma McFail =


Utah, get me two.
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#55 User is offline   Jwill55sk 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 03:02 PM

QUOTE (coolpapacole @ Jun 27 2009, 02:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is what I want to know too. Someone said he is already a better hitter than Nyjer, but that sure doesn't seem to be evident in my glance at his stats. Nyjer has the better EQA, OPS+, and so forth. The only thing that looks like a clear advantage for Milledge is that he is younger. Other than that, Nyjer has slightly better offensive numbers and is a better fielder. I am not claiming Nyjer is a great or even particularly good player. I just don't see what makes anyone think Lastings Milledge is a better one.


Milledge posted a 272/341/446 line in part-time duty as a 22-yearold for the Mets in 2007. I'd argue that alone will be more productive than anything Morgan has done or will do in his Pirate career.

This point moves even further along when you consider McCutchen as the long term CF for this organization, because Morgan is a joke of a corner outfielder. Milledge has plenty of flaws, probably far more than he does strength, but an organization in the position of the Pirates would be nuts to hold onto a 29 yearold 4th or 5th outfielder when they have a chance to acquire a guy who has some chance of being a future regular, which I think Milledge still does at 24.
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#56 User is offline   CRIMHEAD 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 03:20 PM

QUOTE (coolpapacole @ Jun 27 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is what I want to know too. Someone said he is already a better hitter than Nyjer, but that sure doesn't seem to be evident in my glance at his stats. Nyjer has the better EQA, OPS+, and so forth. The only thing that looks like a clear advantage for Milledge is that he is younger. Other than that, Nyjer has slightly better offensive numbers and is a better fielder. I am not claiming Nyjer is a great or even particularly good player. I just don't see what makes anyone think Lastings Milledge is a better one.


I concede that their career numbers make Morgan look slightly more productive. But, Milledge did put up an OPS+ of 91 in a full season last year at age 23, so although he does have a lower career OPS+, the season isn't over, yet. I don't think Morgan is capable of doing that, period. Their minor league stats are also very different. Milledge's are MUCH better, and he was putting them up in each league at a much younger age.

Second, does anyone think Morgan is going to get much better? If not, I think we can agree his production is not acceptable for a team that is going to win the championships. Not off the bench, even, even if Morgan is a bit better of a runner.

This is the classic ANTI-Littlefield deal. It's dealing proven mediocre for a younger, more talented player, who I argue is just about as productive at this point in time. Milledge is a righty, though, and he's not perfectly suited for PNC Park as a righty, even though he's not really a pull hitter, he seems pretty straight-away according to his hit chart.

I would rather have Milledge in 2 years than Morgan, put it this way.
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#57 User is offline   coolpapacole 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 03:43 PM

Again, it isn't like I think Nyjer is a stud. I don't. I just don't see a whole lot in Milledge either. I'd think that Nyjer could be a useful player as a 4th outfielder/pinch runner/defensive replacement for a contending team, or at least I think many other teams would think so. He can at least be a player that would sweeten a potential deal, so I wouldn't throw him away for nothing. If Milledge has fantastic minor league numbers and there is some reason to think he will get a good bit better, then I would probably more enthused by getting him. So far his ML numbers leave me far from impressed, especially since he apparently is not all that good in the field.
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#58 User is offline   Pjoma 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 04:48 PM

QUOTE (Penguin @ Jun 27 2009, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This post is so wrong it's time I sent out a big "fuck you" to Pjoma.

First of all, as Jeff King said, you never mentioned WAR on this board up until a few weeks ago. So how all of a sudden is it "the only thing that matters"? Could you be saying that because it conveniently supports your argument? Listen, if it's as simple as saying WAR is the new Moneyball and you think NH is trying to use it as his foundation for building a winner, fine. But don't attempt to insult everyone's intelligence by saying it's all that matters. Because any person who thinks Nyjer Morgan is the best LF in baseball is an idiot. And any statistics that says it's true is greatly flawed. And I guarantee you when NH makes a move that doesn't isupport WAR, you won't mention it.

But you know what Pjoma, I've spent a good amount of time defending you. Despite rarely agreeing with you, I thought you offered a generally unique an interesting perspective. But your posting over the last month or so is so horrendeously bad, even you should be ashamed of yourself. Especially for attempting to call out LHB for his player evalutations. Aren't you the same person who claimed 2 million fans were going to cheer as Eric Hinske hit 25 HR's? Weren't you the one who said you would be shocked in Brandon Moss didn't OPS .800 this season?

But let's take a look at the draft for a moment to truly put your lack of objectivity and credibilty into question.

First, when the rumors of the Pirates taking Fatchez with the first pick first surfaced, you had this to say:



And when challenged about it, he responded with this:



So not only was that premature conclusive post accurate, it was more right than had you predicted Hinske hitting 6 homeruns.

And then just hours before the draft, you responded to a post from someone saying they will wait to get pissed about the Fatchez pick when it happens with his:



And then immediately after they drafted Sanchez, he had this to say:



You then went silent on the topic for an unsual couple of days only to return with constant posts about how thin the draft was and how none of the other players taken immediately after Fatchez were very good (players you suggested the Pirates take). But your obvious ball sucking came after this post which completely flew in the face of what you had been saying before and immediately after the draft:




But then there was your blatant avoidance of this comment by your hero, Kevin Goldstein:

"This deal was probably agreed to before the selection even took place. The question is of course, why? He wasn't going to go anywhere near this high if the Pirates didn't take him, so couldn't he have been had for a million dollars less, giving the club money to spend elsewhere? It's not as if anyone else was going to pay him this much, so why did Pittsburgh? It's almost like they spent an extra million dollars just to prove that they really liked the guy."

So fucking please spare us your questioning of other's player evaluations. When someone so obviously reaches for any defense of this organization and attempts to support certain players with lines like "He's like a freakin' pitbull on the mound", you can't be taken seriously. Remember, you are the same boob who defended Dave Littlefield right up until the day he was fired. So how can you expect anyone to take your support of NH seriously when it clear you'll use any justification to support this organization?


For starters, I've been enamored with WAR since BP predicted the 2008 season for the Rays. As I've said many times, I have a few friends on the BP staff and in the MLB Dept. of Stats. I spent all winter in long debates and exchanges with them about the balance that lies in between visual scouting, statistical projections and player evaluations based on stats. I wasn't convinced of any of this until the Rays actually made it come true and the teams in the top 10 of WAR were clearly the best teams in baseball for 3 years straight.

I couldn't argue about things like OPS being a bogus stat that used addition of two percentages with people here because they all seem to live and breathe on evaluating players on OPS and errors or fielding percentage, which I find to be so ridiculous and living in the past that I decided I needed to learn more. In March, a buddy of mine at BP told me about the Eric Neel article in ESPN the Magazine and how closely it mirrored the work that Dan Fox had been doing at BP. I still wasn't 100% convinced until I spoke to my friends in the MLB Stats office and they both told me that virtually every single team is 100% sold on the valuation of a player as it pertains to to total wins saved or lost as a TOTAL Valuation of a baseball player. One said that teams have all seen how precise the WAR stat is and they are all calling on MLB Stats, Stats.com and Baseball Info Solutions for loading their statistical databases with stats running 3 years back. Every team in baseball is currently using their own version of WAR that runs much deeper than we'll ever know.

So, when someone here says "I don't buy that stat", or "I don't see how that player is saving runs", or "I don't believe that there is a metric that can put a total value on a player", I shake my head. When those same posters use a stat that was derived from adding two seperate percentages together and call that stat gospel, I get mad as hell. If you can't use BP's projection of the Rays going from less than 70 wins in 2007 to over 90 in 2008 as a validation of WAR as the best stat in baseball, then nothing I can say or provide to you will help.


This board in general, myself included, has no clue how far advanced player valuation analysis has come and how accurate it is. Yet, they stand on their pulpits and preach how idiotic anyone was to think that a Nyjer Morgan could provide a value to the Pirates, let alone any team in baseball. I applaud guys like jeffr taking the time to do homework on this. He's not the only one either. I have respect for anyone who actually attempts to be open to the merits of discussing things, instead of calling me an idiot for my comments about Morgan, Ohlendorf, LaRoche, Chavez, Duke, Jaramillo, Karstens, Tabata Nady (last year), Bay (last year) and, yes, Moss OPS'ing .800 this year. I do my homewok and I stand behind it, for better or worse.

Now, that said, I'm still old fashioned and old. I'm not informed enough about how the statistical evaluations are merged with the visual scouting and historical baseball statistics, but I'm at least trying to learn. Over the last 6 months, I've been provided with a ton of information, some of which I share here. The reason why I don't share everything is because there are those posters who are 100% commited to not being open to discuss them and they verbally abuse anyone who dares question their evaluations. I don't think I've verbally abused anyone here.

Lastly, on the Sanchez pick, I don't know how much clearer I can be. I was against picking him and still don't believe he was the best position player for the $ that was available. I also believe that it was a well above average draft. That means nothing though until the signings are done. I also do not believe that a draft is made or missed on one player or even three or four, so I'm not going to cry or moan, or jump for joy is Sanchez is a failure or a success. It's the entire body of the draft that NH's success or failure will be based on. If it was any other way across baseball, there would be 10,000 unemployed GM'S who were fired due to their first round picks. I believe that Sanchez was the player the Pirates wanted and I feel that he was an overdarft and I feel that they spent more on him than they would have if they were picking at #15 or #25. If that's the player they wanted and the strategy is exactly executed the way fangraphs detailed it, then our organization is genious. If it fails, then they deserve to be held accountable.



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#59 User is offline   jestor92 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 04:53 PM

One more thing I'd like to point out. Most times you don't hear about trading players until after the fact that they are either traded or fell apart. It wouldn't surprise me if this trade fell apart and someone within Washington's front office let word leak out that they were discussing this trade. I'd say Pittsburgh's front office, but you would hear the "rumor" from Dejan or Perrotto.

I'm guessing this trade discussion was made and that the reason we're hearing about it is because the fact that it fell apart.
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#60 User is offline   herrmorpheus 

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Posted 27 June 2009 - 05:19 PM

QUOTE (jestor92 @ Jun 27 2009, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
One more thing I'd like to point out. Most times you don't hear about trading players until after the fact that they are either traded or fell apart. It wouldn't surprise me if this trade fell apart and someone within Washington's front office let word leak out that they were discussing this trade. I'd say Pittsburgh's front office, but you would hear the "rumor" from Dejan or Perrotto.

I'm guessing this trade discussion was made and that the reason we're hearing about it is because the fact that it fell apart.

You mean like this?
http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/pb...n-in-trade.aspx

The teams began discussing this eight days ago, and a Washington proposal in which the Pirates would get younger outfielder Lastings Milledge crumbled when the Pirates came back seeking Milledge and starter Craig Stammen.

One of the sources said the teams plan to continue to talk, mostly because the Nationals are eager to have Morgan as a leadoff man.
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