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#12761 User is offline   jcharding 

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Posted Today, 02:23 PM

I don't like the removal of the Confederate Monuments any more than I like the similar actions at Yale or UVA eradicating statues or building names because those men owned slaves. All of it is part of our history, and nothing says that we are only allowed to have good history. Keep it all, and explain. At the same time we living in the here and now need to remember a little thing called context, and not judging the past exclusively through the lens of today.
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#12762 User is offline   oblongatta 

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Posted Today, 02:27 PM

There's a lot of people here who want that Paterno statue back
You're pretty on the inside,
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You're pretty on the inside,
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#12763 User is offline   Sloshy 

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Posted Today, 02:29 PM

 jcharding, on 22 May 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

I don't like the removal of the Confederate Monuments any more than I like the similar actions at Yale or UVA eradicating statues or building names because those men owned slaves. All of it is part of our history, and nothing says that we are only allowed to have good history. Keep it all, and explain. At the same time we living in the here and now need to remember a little thing called context, and not judging the past exclusively through the lens of today.

I disagree in some cases. If Auschwitz was being preserved by a band of locals who wanted to be reminded of a time before the War of Western Aggression, I'd tear the damn thing down no matter where it's educational value. That it could be used to continue radicalizing those with Nazi tendencies would outweigh the positive learning.

These confederate monuments are viewed in a similar way by those in the South, not as a badge of shame but as a source of pride. A pride that is wrapped up in slavery and Jim Crow laws. Fuck that.
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#12764 User is offline   Grey 

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Posted Today, 02:29 PM

View Postoblongatta, on 22 May 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

There's a lot of people here who want that Paterno statue back


Really? I don't personally know anyone who wants it back, other than the fringe Pateronphiles in our fan base, which is about 5% at maximum.
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#12765 User is offline   Dale Berra's Nose 

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Posted Today, 02:31 PM

 jcharding, on 22 May 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

I don't like the removal of the Confederate Monuments any more than I like the similar actions at Yale or UVA eradicating statues or building names because those men owned slaves. All of it is part of our history, and nothing says that we are only allowed to have good history. Keep it all, and explain. At the same time we living in the here and now need to remember a little thing called context, and not judging the past exclusively through the lens of today.

It's actually the failed attempt at renaming Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs that served as the trigger for my thoughts on this. Who better to name a school of international affairs after than the guy largely responsible for the League of Nations, precursor to the United Nations?

And then, where does it end? Do we blow up Mt. Rushmore because Washington and Jefferson were slave owners?
IS THIS THE GAME THREAD???
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#12766 User is online   PSU4Lyfe 

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Posted Today, 02:33 PM

 Grey, on 22 May 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Really? I don't personally know anyone who wants it back, other than the fringe Pateronphiles in our fan base, which is about 5% at maximum.


Yeah i don't think anyone here has said they care about the Paterno statue right?
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#12767 User is offline   tobaccoroad 

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Posted Today, 03:19 PM

The Civil War was about states rights. However, the main (almost only) reason those states were wanting to preserve those rights was slavery. So those claiming it was about state rights are technically correct, but those saying it was about slavery are more correct....slavery being the underlying reason for the states rights confliction.

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#12768 User is offline   GoBucs21 

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Posted Today, 03:51 PM

View PostECBucs, on 22 May 2017 - 01:55 PM, said:

I don't like the removal either. I would like to see explanations of the subjects of the monuments, although ones that are written by someone like Ken Burns rather than Sons or Daughters of Confederacy.

Living in Alabama I can vouch that many say the civil war was state rights and not slavery and will support that by saying many soldiers fought who didn't own slaves. However, looking at history in total and the Missouri Compromise, Fugitive Slave Act, southern states advocating that all newly admitted states be slave states shows that slavery was the issue.

Fuck all of them. They were traitors, pure and simple.
Article III of the Constitution:

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Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.


Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, PT Beauregard, Stonewall Jackson, pick a fucking Confederate leader, they were all traitors. We should have never honored or memorialized any of these fucking traitors. They not only turned on their country, they killed Americans to fight for a system that believed in the enslavement of human being.

Fuck the idea of rewriting history. Where does it state that the first ones to write history are the only ones? What kind of fucking logic is that? Taking down the statues of these traitors has nothing to do with history. We can still study them. Hell, I encourage the study of them in the proper context. That context is that that took up arms against their country to protect slavery. Have that fucking discussion.

Anyone who believes that the Civil War was about states' rights either doesn't know what he/she is talking about or is intellectually dishonest. The Confederate states fought against the territories allowing freedom for escaped slaves. Those states pushed the federal government to enforce laws on slaves. The Southern Democrats split from the Northern Democrats in the 1860 Democratic convention when Steven Douglas proposed that new states decide whether or not they wanted slavery. Southern states demanded that all states enter the Union as free states. If you read the Confederate Constitution (yes, a states' rights nation had a constitution), slavery is mentioned about a dozen times. If you read the state constitutions of the Confederate states: Georgia, South Carolina, Texas, Virginia and Mississippi slavery is cited 83 times. At no time did any of them mention "states’ rights". Finally, there is this beauty of a quote, from the Confederate Vice President, Alexander H. Stevens puts to rest the idea that the Confederacy was anything other than slavery.

Quote

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.


The only people rewriting history are the ones who want to portray the Confederate leaders as men of honor. They were nothing of the sort. They were traitors and as such, they deserve no statues, no plaques, no public roads or schools or military installations named after them. They deserve no honor or memorialization. We should most certainly study them as history, and put them in the same light as Benedict Arnold, Cornwallis, King George, Ludendorf, Hindenburg, Hitler, Falkenhayn, Rommel, von Rundstedt, Kesselring, Kim Il Sung, and Ho Chi Mihn. That's the way we should study them.
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Day of commemoration to honor the Victims of Bowling Green, April 1, 2017.
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#12769 User is offline   GoBucs21 

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Posted Today, 03:52 PM

View Posttobaccoroad, on 22 May 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

The Civil War was about states rights. However, the main (almost only) reason those states were wanting to preserve those rights was slavery. So those claiming it was about state rights are technically correct, but those saying it was about slavery are more correct....slavery being the underlying reason for the states rights confliction.

Shoes

Except that they didn't believe in states rights. They only believed in slavery. They had no problems with federal tariffs on imports.
People say I am ruthless. I am not ruthless. And if I find the man who is calling me ruthless, I shall destroy him.
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Day of commemoration to honor the Victims of Bowling Green, April 1, 2017.
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#12770 User is offline   GoBucs21 

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Posted Today, 03:54 PM

View PostDale Berra, on 22 May 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

It's actually the failed attempt at renaming Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs that served as the trigger for my thoughts on this. Who better to name a school of international affairs after than the guy largely responsible for the League of Nations, precursor to the United Nations?

And then, where does it end? Do we blow up Mt. Rushmore because Washington and Jefferson were slave owners?

How many statues of Washington and Jefferson are there in Great Britain?
People say I am ruthless. I am not ruthless. And if I find the man who is calling me ruthless, I shall destroy him.
Robert F. Kennedy

Moral courage is a more rare commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence.
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Day of commemoration to honor the Victims of Bowling Green, April 1, 2017.
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#12771 User is offline   tobaccoroad 

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Posted Today, 03:56 PM

View PostGoBucs21, on 22 May 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

Except that they didn't believe in states rights. They only believed in slavery. They had no problems with federal tariffs on imports.


They used the wedge of slavery to call for states rights as the reason for the secession. The idea of states rights was simply a means to an end. It is possible not to believe in something but still be correct in stating it as a reason for action.

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#12772 User is offline   GoBucs21 

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Posted Today, 04:02 PM

View Posttobaccoroad, on 22 May 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

They used the wedge of slavery to call for states rights as the reason for the secession. The idea of states rights was simply a means to an end. It is possible not to believe in something but still be correct in stating it as a reason for action.

Shoes

States' rights was the lie they created to protect slavery. It was a fiction, that was a means to an end. Not unlike a cheating husband who says that cheating is his way to fight off blue balls.
People say I am ruthless. I am not ruthless. And if I find the man who is calling me ruthless, I shall destroy him.
Robert F. Kennedy

Moral courage is a more rare commodity than bravery in battle or great intelligence.
Robert F. Kennedy

Day of commemoration to honor the Victims of Bowling Green, April 1, 2017.
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#12773 User is offline   oblongatta 

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Posted Today, 04:08 PM

damn, the Paterno statue comment was an analogy joke after several people commented on the civil war statues (obviously it failed):

Paterno : Robert E Lee :: pedophilia : slavery
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#12774 User is offline   jcharding 

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Posted Today, 04:14 PM

They were traitors, but Lincoln's reconstruction plan wouldn't have treated them as such.
I am nevertheless too sensible of my defects not to think it probable that I may have committed many posting errors.

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#12775 User is offline   Dale Berra's Nose 

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Posted Today, 04:14 PM

 GoBucs21, on 22 May 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

How many statues of Washington and Jefferson are there in Great Britain?

A better question may be how many statues of Napoleon are there in France?
IS THIS THE GAME THREAD???
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