I'd take Brady over Manning any day of the week, and I hate that pretty boy prick.

From Peter King's column (whatever your opinion of him is, this is an interesting story from Manning):

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writ...09/Week1/4.html

Why? Because the Patriots have been better than the Colts?

I'm still trying to get my head around Chad Pennington.

Or Jay Cutler who has started what?


7-8 games?

How about Jon Kitna being as good as Ben.

Hell, may as well say Aaron Brooks.

That Manning story is fantastic. An incredible combination of physical tools and brain power...

Uh, no. Just no.

Look, it's simple. The "class" breakdown of all of quarterbacks in the NFL are as follows:

The Elite: Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer
The Above Average: Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, Jake Delhomme, Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers, Marc Bulger
Average: Jeff Garcia, Jon Kitna, Matt Hasselback, Brett Favre, Rex Grossman, Alex Smith
The Unproven: Tony Romo, JP Losman, Matt Schaub, David Garrard, Jay Cutler, Tavarias Jackson, Jason Campbell, Vince Young, Matt Leinart
The Chronically Injured: Steve McNair, Chad Pennington, Donovan McNabb, Trent Green
Pure Shit: Josh McCown, Derek Anderson, Charlie Frye, Joey Harrington, Damon Huard

Pennington, Cutler, and Romo...ahead of Roethlisberger? and McNabb? Wow

Its amazing how that media hype has worked for Cutler and Romo.

Herrm, While I think Palmer is a good quarterback.

The guy has all the offensive weapons in the world and what exactly has his teams done?


Won 0 playoff games, so he is not elite yet

I hate the Bengals (and Palmer) as much as the next guy...but he's an awesome quarterback.

Jake Delhomme sucks.

I was just going to post that Matt. Delhomme should be in the list of suck not above average. Big Ben is a top 5 QB (maybe #5) but top 5 nonetheless.

If I had to actually rank them (say top 10), it'd be this:

1. Peyton Manning (uh, duh)
2. Tom Brady. (No further questions)
3. Carson Palmer (he doesn't control the defense and that's why they haven't done anything)
4. Drew Brees (Has to show he can slip out of his current funk or he'll drop)
5. Phillip Rivers (Has to show that he can utilize Gates and LT in more ways)
6. Marc Bulger (he's been doing it longer, even though he hasn't won much)
7. Ben Roethlisberger (I just need to see one more year, and then I'll be an official buyer)
8. Eli Manning (Has to show that he's not soft, both physically and mentally)
9. Jake Delhomme (on the decline, needs to find rhythm with his receivers again)
10. Tony Romo (if he keeps playing well, he'll move up quickly and could be in the top 5 by the end of the year)

I would wager Jay Cutler and Vince Young are in the top ten by the end othe season, Delhomme and Drees will drop out. Or Manning will drop out because of injury.

Did someone seriously throw Chad fucking Pennington into this discussion? I thought the debate was pretty good until that went down. A guy that had his HOME fans cheer when he got hurt was seriously listed in this thread? And holy Christ, you're not writing a text message. I thought when you spelled "right" as "ryt" the first time you had made a mistake(albeit a ridiculous one) but then you went and did it again. Burgboi makes PF82 look like a genius. And are we sure your handle shouldn't be "Burg16yearoldgurl"?

No, because I think Brady is better than Manning. He has had crap to throw to until this year and he has made it shine. The guy comes up big regularly in big situations. Manning does not. He rode that team last year much more than he carried it in the playoffs. I simply trust Brady when the chips are down way more than I trust Manning. That is not to say that Manning is not an all-time great. I think he is. But if it came down to who would I rather have in crunch time, I would take Brady.

This could never be repeated enough.

Batch is a better QB than Pennington. That is a fact.

Not to be a dickhead becuase I think the Brady vs. Manning argument can be very interesting with strong arguments for both sides, but what would happen if you went back to 2002 and switched QB's for the Patriots and Colts. Would Manning still have to wait until 2007 to win a Superbowl? Probably not. Would Brady have been able to lead the inferior Colts teams past the Patriots? Not likely.

Brady is a great QB. Manning my be the best of all time.

Fixed.

Nothing you say will convince me to take Manning over Brady in crunch time. Brady has a history of coming up big in big situations. Maybe he hasn't done it every single time, but he sure as hell has done it more than Manning has. Look at Manning's numbers in the playoffs last year. They are pretty bad, especially for him. Even when he finally won the Super Bowl, it was not a case of him carrying the team. If anything, they carried him to the Super Bowl, although he did play well once there against an over-matched Bears team. Manning is the all-time greatest fantasy QB. Good for him. I'll take the guy that has won three Super Bowls with teams that were far from dominate.

I'm also in the pro Brady over Manning category. Peyton I do think loses it a bit when you put some people in his face. I just have never quite seen a guy able to drop a ball into space like Tom Brady does. Never. You simply HAVE to play man coverage against that dude. They are both fantastic, though, and the difference isn't much.

That being said, Ben is a different QB and his ability to make the big play is what makes him special. His pocket presence and his athleticism for his size, is off the charts. His ability to make a little move, get out of the pocket, and free up an extra few seconds to throw the bomb makes all the difference in the world. You can game plan against Peyton Manning and Tom Brady a bit. And I've seen guys game plan a bit and stop Ben, but if those other guy's O lines are not playing well, they are dead meat. I personally think the Steelers offensive line is totally overrated. Watching tommy maddox was proof that an immobile QB was a sitting duck behind them. It was Ben's athleticism that MADE that offense.

We got to the super bowl on his arm and his arm alone. He was god-awful in the super bowl, but he was AWESOME in the playoffs. But the ability to have your team getting the crap kicked out of them, and still get lose, and make the arm, vision, and creativity to make a big play to put 6 points on the board out of nowhere, is a trait that not many have. He also just doesn't dink the ball down the field like every other QB in the league. There are others I'd rather have - but he really fits the offense. Athletic enough to get the ball back to the RB, good ball handler, can get outside of the pocket and make a play, has the arm strength to get the ball down the field, rarely misses a guy when he is open, etc.

Top 5...eh, I think Brady and Manning are outstanding. I'm not sure McNabb couldn't be great if he played in an offense that allowed him to run around and chuck the thing. Palmer is really efficient, but I just feel that he's a total choke artist. Bulger I just don't understand the fascination with. I do think Rivers is a solid player and Brees is just so accurate, but he's still a midget. Jay Cutler is talented, but c'mon on. Romo is talented, but I'd like to see what he would do against some of these teams in the AFC central. So actually, after thinking about it a bit more, he's definitely top 10.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Brady
Manning
Bulger
Brees
Palmer

alright, at least these five I'm sure we could all readily agree are better than Ben

and as I stated in my most previous post, it's not about what you've done, it's what have you done for me lately...

meaning anything dating back to last year IMO...

Pennington, Cutler, and Romo faired better than BR on a consistent basis.

Don't get caught up in the success Ben has had. Last year he down right sucked.

As far as McNabb being in the same class as Eli, Ben, etc...I put him in there cause he can't stay healthy, if he could, he'd be right up there within the top 5.

Not only has Chad Pennington sucked lately, he hasn't even played lately. Over the last two years he's started like 17 games. It's absolutely ridiculous to throw his name out there. Same thing for a guy who has played six NFL games.

Spoken like a true Pittsburgh sports fan...

South Florida should have beaten Penn State in 2005.

Sorry, had to throw something out there as absurd as someone saying A) Tom Brady is better than Peyton Manning (AKA, probably best QB of all time and B-) putting Chad Pennington near elite level.

Seriously, people wonder why Pittsburgh fans always run their QB out of town. When was the last time a QB wasn't. Bubby Brister, Neil O'Donnel, Mike Tomczak, Jim Miller, Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox, all run out of town (not saying its not all deserved) and yet all some of these guys did was lead to the Steelers to Super Bowls and AFC championship games.

Now, people are talking about Big Ben as if he sucks and saying guys like Chad Pennington, Jay Cutler (he of 5 career starts), Tony Romo in year one of starting, etc are better than a Super Bowl winning QB (don't tell me that he's not the one that got us through the playoffs that year) who as all those stats show really has numbers that are quite excellent. YPA and QB rating.

And don't tell me he's just a product of the system. Everyone here well knows that system was run the ball for two plays setting up 3 and 5. Big Ben was constantly in charge of making key 3rd downs and he suceeded almost every time. That's pretty damn good and tough to do.

And I know this is something I hate to do but it can't be ignored. Take out his games immediately following injury (when he was clearly not right) then he has a 17-17 TD/Int mark. Not great, but not nearly as bad as some make it out to be in clearly his one down year.

Chad Pennington was an azzbirth.

Yeah that Brady guy hasn't won a superbown in like 3 years, he fucking sucks

There is nothing ridiculous about preferring Brady to Manning. Manning has routinely sucked in big games. In spite of what the media has fed you about last year, he sucked in most of the playoffs last year as well. His team carried him through the playoffs. Brady, on the other hand, has routinely come through in big games for his team. He has done so with some extremely run of the mill WRs, unlike Manning. If you asked me who I would want if I had great WRs, a line that can keep my QB completely untouched, and in a game with no pressure, it would be Manning. If you asked me who I would want in a pressure packed game at the end to win it, I would take Brady over Manning. Believe what you want, but Manning has yet to prove that he can handle pressure well. He has come through at the end of one game against the Pats and against a completely over-matched Bears team in the Super Bowl. I am not impressed with his record in pressure situations. He absolutely crumbled against the Steelers in 2005 when we got pressure on him, and until last year he routinely fell apart in the playoffs, especially against the Pats. Even last year he was anything but spectacular, or even particularly good in the playoffs. He was simply not bad enough to sink his team, which was playing really well. No doubt Manning will have the numbers to be considered one of the greatest QBs of all time, but he still has a lot of work to do if he wants to be considered soemone you can rely on when the big game is on the line. Regardless, I don't consider either of them the greatest QB of all time. At the very least, I prefer Unitas and Montana.



Edit:

For those interested, here are their comparative playoff numbers:

Manning: 290 of 475 for 3495 yds 18 tds 15 ints

Brady: 295 of 486 for 3217 yds 20 tds 9 ints

Yeah, it is really ridiculous to prefer Brady over Manning.

The Colts weren't going to win that game against the Steelers with Otto Graham playing quarterback.

TERRY BRADSHAW = GREATEST QB EVAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111

4 SUPER BOWLS, MOTHER FUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

I guess some people have different perspective on "consistent basis".

But just to set the record straight, Cutler played five games last year.

"Don't get caught up in the success Ben has had."

i agree completely. it's best to focus on the worst moments in a career and form our judgements based on them. so, looking back on this thread, i am rating burghboi -162.

His bad game last year against Oakland completely discounts certain previous extremely good games on the road against Cincinatti, Indianapolis, and Denver.

Cut him.

I'm not gonna add much, but Big Ben is certainly not on the elite level of Brady and Manning. Palmer I think is so goddamn overrated and if you watched yesterday I think some would agree.

However, there are not many good QB's in the NFL right now. I don't know why, there just isn't. The fact is we have an above average quarterback who might possibly bloom to elite level. Once he can play like he did in the playoffs on a consistent basis then he will be considered elite by everyone.

That said I'd rather have Big Ben than Carson.

The notion that anyone out there is arguing that Rivers, Romo, Pennington, or Jay Fucking Cutler belong ahead of Ben on any list other than "unproven QB's with brief periods of success" is truly astounding to me. Truly. Tony Romo has started 11 games in his career and is almost 3 years older than Ben. Cutler has started 5. Rivers 17. Those three have combined to win exactly zero fucking playoff games.

The whole argument is predicated around the ridiculous concept that because Ben is mobile, you'd prefer someone else. Ben is not a running QB. Does he get happy feet at times and leave the pocket too soon? Sure. But he makes more plays out of the pocket than any QB I've seen, and to even suggest that this is somehow a negative is just being silly.

This is one of the most moronic things ever typed.

Right on. Ben is already a good QB and has the skill set to become an elite one. He is able to do things most other QBs can't because of his ability to make plays when pressured.

To think I thought you guys were talking about London.

I am going to agree with this. Palmer was high on just about every pass he threw in the first half but was bailed out by the extremely talented receivers he was throwing to. If he had been more accurate the game wouldn't have been as close as it was.

My thoughts on BR alone.

In his rookie season he played exceptionally well. He displayed poise and natural talent, combine that with the team around him and and it's no suprise he had success. I thought he didn't grow so much more in his second season, until the playoffs. During the play-offs he was as locked in as any QB could be. In the Super Bowl he didn't play as well as he could have, although he did play a good game and made the plays he needed to make. Last season brought my opinion of Ben down. The offense was as open as the play-offs the year before, and it was a disaster from the start. Despite this, I don't have a doubt in my mind Ben will return to his old form of his first two years.

Ask yourself which QB's you'd rather have as your starting QB at the end of the regular season last year. The 8 guys I named, including the 3 I've been ridiculed for, are the guys I'd choose before Ben to enter last season's play-offs with because they performed better than Ben last year.

So you are trying to make your list based on who you would have had starting at the end of last year, yet you contend its a what have you done for me lately league, which is 2 days ago?

You're still wrong anyway no matter how you try to steer the argument.

Hell, Plexico Buress is a better Qb than Chad Pennington.

He is certainly better at spiking the ball in the middle of the field

bEN JUST GITS LUKKY THROUGHING THE DEPP BAWL, THAT IZ Y HIZ YARDZ PER COMPLICATION IS SOOO HI!!!!!11!

Anyone care to toss out the career records, including playoffs and Super Bowls won of active QB's?

Also, anyone want to toss out how many 125+ QB Rating games the active QB's have had?

Too much work for me, but I'm sure Big Ben is near the very top of both lists.

1 - Peyton Manning
2 - Tom Brady
3 - Drew Brees
4 - Ben Roethlisberger
5 - Donovan McNabb
6 - Carson Palmer
7 - Matt Hasselback
8 - Marc Bulger
9 - Phillip Rivers
10 - Tony Romo

Why are people so concerned about wins and losses with Quarterbacks? Was Rex Grossman an elite QB last year?

No, but the QB has the most direct impact on the game than anybody else.

With an average QB, the Bears would have given the Colts a much better game, and would probably have had a good chance to win the Super Bowl.

I tend to favor production + wins to just one or the other, not sure about you.

Wanna fill me in on what's right big guy?

Your reading comprehension along with your ability to rate quarterbacks are apparently similar.

Ed, I like this post. I dont necessarily agree with all of it, but it makes sense. My original statement was that I preferred someone who looked to stay in the pocket. I never said it was a negative that he went out of the pocket, in fact, he is much better out of the pocket. I prefer my qb to stay in the pocket, basically, how all this shit got started. That and the fact that I like E. Manning and Rivers better than Ben.

Dont sell Rivers short. If you remember in 05, Big Ben was not real good in the playoffs, there are growing pains. I agree that Cutler does not even belong in the arguement, and I see your point about Romo, not that I totally agree with it.

I don't get the love for Eli at all. He has a career 54.5% completion percent and a 74.4 rating (which is admittedly a flawed rating system). Oh, and a nothing special 6.35 YPA. Plus, he has had a pretty stacked offense around him. I have seen nothing special from him so far, although he did look good before he got hurt the other night.

When your O-line sucks to high heaven, there is rarely a pocket to stay in. The Steelers O-line is terrible in pass protection, and has been for years.

His last name is Manning. Thus, he must be good.