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Triangle Bullet OT: I'm tired of it, Big Ben IS elite
AltimusPrime
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 03:34 PM
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Big Ben IS an elite QB. I'm tired of this shit. He IS. Fuck, in his first two seasons the Steelers went:

15-1
11-5 and a Super Bowl.

(best two seasons by a QBack EVER, nonetheless the first two seasons)

And he threw us through the AFC playoffs. Period. He threw us though Cincy, Denver, Indy. He was less than stellar in the SB, granted, but he ended up the youngest to win it.

And then the third season he was damn near killed, THEN had an emergency appendecotmy, then a concussion, and he was rushed back too soon and the team STILL finished 8-8. His yards/attempt are 3rd best IN HISTORY. In HISTORY. And never mind his seemingly-Elway-esque ability to come back.

I'm sick and tired of Ben not being considered an elite QB.

Take a look at this article:


http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1562


From the article:


"Roethlisberger’s 87.9 passer rating stands as the ninth-best in NFL history – one spot behind Brady (88.4) and one spot ahead of Drew Brees (87.5), two quarterbacks you routinely hear mentioned among the game’s elite.

With just 1,032 career pass attempts, Roethlisberger isn’t officially on the all-time passer rating list just yet. The NFL requires 1,500 pass attempts for consideration. But it’s quite possible he’ll reach that mark by the end of the 2007 season. Roethlisberger attemped 469 passes last year. (See the whole list of all-time passer rating leaders here.)

More importantly, though, is Roethlisberger’s amazing 8.25 yards per pass attempt. Topping 8.0 YPA is virtually unheard of at the pro level.

In fact, his amazing 8.25 YPA stands as third-best in NFL history, behind just two of the greatest quarterbacks ever: Otto Graham and Sid Luckman. These are no ordinary Ottos and Sids who Roethlisberger finds himself among. In 18 years of NFL play, Graham and Luckman appeared in 11 championship games, winning seven of those title tilts.

Just five quarterbacks in NFL history topped 8.0 YPA for their career. There are no Swatches on this list of NFL record-setters, just the sweet dulcet chimes of Rolexes, Bulovas and Big Bens.

TOP 5 ALL-TIME PASSING YPA LEADERS
Player (Years) Yards Att. YPA Title Games Titles
Otto Graham (1950-55) 13,499 1,565 8.63 6 3
Sid Luckman (1939-50) 14,686 1,744 8.42 5 4
Ben Roethlisberger (2004-present) 8,519 1,032 8.25 1 1
Kurt Warner (1998-present) 20,591 2,508 8.21 2 1
Norm Van Brocklin (1949-60) 23,611 2,895 8.16 5 2

- Among players with a minimum 40 NFL games and 1,000 pass attempts
- Bold indicates HOF quarterbacks

To put this list in prosaic terms, among all the quarterbacks who have taken a snap in the NFL over the past 50 years, none have carved up opposing defenses with their passing arm as efficiently as Roethlisberger.


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And yet Ben isn't mentioned among elite NFL QB's by most publications. Even local writers think we need to "control" the amount of attempts Ben makes in order to win.

The Steelers went 15-1 his first year, then won the Superbowl his second.

Under most circumstances, these are the best two first seasons anyone ever had.

Then, take the above article, and you can see that even after his third (accident, appendectomy, concussion) season, this strong-armed, quick-footed, game-winning QB should be talked about as among the best in the current NFL.

Fuck the doubters. Ben is an elite QB. Maybe no Peyton or no Brady (although in some ways he has outperformed them) but definitely he is an elite QB.





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Winters in Holland
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 04:13 PM
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(best two seasons by a QBack EVER, nonetheless the first two seasons)


I think that's a pretty lofty claim that is probably not true, but I do agree that Roethlisberger does not get his due credit.

I think it's mostly because of his style of football: its effective, but ugly.

I'm fine with ugly.


.WiH.


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SepulturaFan5000
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 04:26 PM
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As a rookie, he went 13-0 in the regular season (14-1 including playoffs) as a starting quarterback...


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 04:29 PM
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I think he if played in the vaunted BigTen in college he would be better received today.


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AltimusPrime
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE (Winters in Holland @ Sep 10 2007, 03:13 PM)
(best two seasons by a QBack EVER, nonetheless the first two seasons)


I think that's a pretty lofty claim that is probably not true, but I do agree that Roethlisberger does not get his due credit.

I think it's mostly because of his style of football:  its effective, but ugly.

I'm fine with ugly.


.WiH.

I should have said best two FIRST TWO seasons by a QB ever. Not best two seasons ever. I got excited and overstated. My bad.

Undefeated as a rookie in the regular season, plus one of two in the playoffs that same rookie year. Then 11-5 and a Super Bowl in year two.

Not sure anyone can show me a better year one and two by any QB.
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burghboi
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:01 PM
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Altimus, shut up. Shut up, don't talk football, leave that to me. Keep w/e credibility you have and never talk about football again.

Big Ben had an awsome rookie/sophmore season because he played among a solid line, D, and skilled players that completely took the load off him. When Bennie was the go to guy early last season to carry the offense, he floundered...into a season ending 7-8 record as a starter, the most INT's by any other QB in the league, and that leaves a lot to desire.

The Steelers and Ben had only a good game against the Browns, while Ben was very effective, he got to pick on a very young secondary with Hines, Heath, and Santonio spreading the field.

IMO, upon replaying the game, Ben threw 4 bad passes, 1 of which should have been picked had the defender turned his head to go after the ball. The recievers dropped 4 balls, he threw the ball away twice, and the last incomplete pass of the Steelers day was a ball defended by Sean Jones. (2 of the 4 bad passes of Ben's day were also defended by Browns defenders and anotherr was thrown into triple coverage to Hines...it was the play that Hines slipped...but Ben had an underneath guy open, Heath Miller)

Yeah, Ben had one of the best days of his career yesterday, but all players have these days. Ben did it against a shitty team; Until he has solid performences against defenses like the Pats, Ravens, Jags, etc, he cannot be considered any more than an above average starting QB.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:03 PM
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QUOTE
When Bennie was the go to guy early last season to carry the offense, he floundered



Yeah. He had nothing else going on then...


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burghboi
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 07:03 PM)
QUOTE
When Bennie was the go to guy early last season to carry the offense, he floundered



Yeah. He had nothing else going on then...

would you like to elaborate?


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:05 PM
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I think judging him on the start of last season is just a tad unfair. The dude almost died...twice.


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buccobenny
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE (burghboi @ Sep 10 2007, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 07:03 PM)
QUOTE
When Bennie was the go to guy early last season to carry the offense, he floundered



Yeah. He had nothing else going on then...

would you like to elaborate?

Do you really need him to???
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mzimmerman81
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (buccobenny @ Sep 10 2007, 08:07 PM)
QUOTE (burghboi @ Sep 10 2007, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 07:03 PM)
QUOTE
When Bennie was the go to guy early last season to carry the offense, he floundered



Yeah. He had nothing else going on then...

would you like to elaborate?

Do you really need him to???

Yeah really, between:

Ben had a motorcycle wreck and appendectomy
Eli played against Peyton
There were two black coaches in the super bowl
and Every game Reggie Bush played

Pretty much all you heard on a regular basis on ESPN

that and during Steeler games:

Gardocki hasn't had a punt blocked in 4355565421 punts


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:27 PM
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While there was a lot going on last season that could easily help throw it out as being a fluke, consider this...

Roethlisberger played against the Browns. The Browns stink.

The University of Buffalo could beat the Browns.

Let's hold off on anointing him the next big cheese.


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:29 PM
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It's not that he beat the Browns. It's that everyone writes him off as a person that just hands the ball off and points to his bad games and says, "SEE, HE CAN'T DO IT!"

When you average as many yards per pass attempt as Peyton Manning (more, actually) then you're pretty fuckin' good...


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burghboi
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 07:05 PM)
I think judging him on the start of last season is just a tad unfair. The dude almost died...twice.

It was his decision to step in when he did.

Last season in his first 3 games back maybe he gets a samll pass, after that tho, there's no excuse.

the first 3 games back he threw 0 TD's and 7 INT's

the next five games he threw 10 TD's and 7 INT's

the rest of the year he threw 8 TD's and 9 INT's

the 7 quality starts he had were against...
Chiefs-ranked 18th against the pass
Saints-ranked 3rd against the pass
Falcons-ranked 29th against the pass
Bucs-ranked 19th against the pass
Browns-ranked 15th against the pass
Panthers-ranked 4th against the pass
Bengals-ranked 31st against the pass

He simply was a half the quarterback last year that he was his first 2 seasons, so he's a full season, probably two, away from working himself back into anything near great.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:32 PM
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To say his elite is an overstatement. To say that he is a very good quarterback would be more like it. If you actually analyze his performance objectively, Ben is a very average pocket passer. If you contain him, and make him go through is progressions, he is average. He does not use his check downs and gets rattled on anything that isnt an out pattern. Outside of the pocket he is an excellent player, he improvises well and makes things happen. Ben is solid, his record early on was indicitive of the players that he had around him, if you all remember, his offense in his freshman season was remedial. His Super Bowl season was solid, however, the offense went as well as he did. Last season was his fault. Ben's head was ridiculously big, that cannot be denied. Do not defend him, he was a douchebag in the offseason.


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:38 PM
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PF82 would approve of this thread.


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tdippo
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 12:38 AM)
PF82 would approve of this thread.

How bout dem Dolphins?b


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:43 PM
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Still, when you're averaging over 8 yards per pass attempt, keeping a QB rating close to 90, and playing in an AFC Title game and winning A Super Bowl within your first three years in the NFL (Not first three years as a starter, but first three years period) you're pretty fucking good. Talented surroundings or remedial offense be damned.

You're good. REally good.


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tdippo
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 12:43 AM)
Still, when you're averaging over 8 yards per pass attempt, keeping a QB rating close to 90, and playing in an AFC Title game and winning A Super Bowl within your first three years in the NFL (Not first three years as a starter, but first three years period) you're pretty fucking good. Talented surroundings or remedial offense be damned.

You're good. REally good.

I'm not disputing the fact that he is good, but he is not even a Top 5, maybe even 10 QB in the league. If he plays within himself, he will be. In my opinion, he needs to improve his pocket presence. He has happy feet and wants to manuver. Watch games that we lose, i.e. Baltimore last season, he was in the pocket the entire game. His reads are not always quality, especially against aggressive defenses.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:53 PM
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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:53 PM
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Well, I wouldn't call him a top-5...but I can't name 10 QB's that I would want over him.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 08:58 PM
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Clearly Manning, Brady, and Palmer are ahead of him, as probably is Brees. But after those 4, who can you definitely say is better than Ben??


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:01 PM
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tdippo
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:02 PM
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It was meant to be as who I would prefer, and there are other QB's that I would prefer. Big Ben would be 8 or 9 on my list. Not saying I dont like him, I just prefer a different style of quarterback.

That being said, he will excel under Tomlin, they seem to have outstanding rapport.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (u0007890 @ Sep 10 2007, 07:58 PM)
Clearly Manning, Brady, and Palmer are ahead of him, as probably is Brees. But after those 4, who can you definitely say is better than Ben??

No black QB's? What's up with that?


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE

No black QB's? What's up with that?

Fucking honkies holdn' them down.


A healthy McNabb is really good, just he hasn't been healthy in while.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:06 PM
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QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 09:02 PM)
It was meant to be as who I would prefer, and there are other QB's that I would prefer. Big Ben would be 8 or 9 on my list. Not saying I dont like him, I just prefer a different style of quarterback.

That being said, he will excel under Tomlin, they seem to have outstanding rapport.

Who would you prefer? And what style of QB is your preference? The only other QB's I'd think could even be in this discussion are Bulger and McNabb, and Bulger is the same style.


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tdippo
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (u0007890 @ Sep 11 2007, 01:06 AM)
QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 09:02 PM)
It was meant to be as who I would prefer, and there are other QB's that I would prefer.  Big Ben would be 8 or 9 on my list.  Not saying I dont like him, I just prefer a different style of quarterback. 

That being said, he will excel under Tomlin, they seem to have outstanding rapport.

Who would you prefer? And what style of QB is your preference? The only other QB's I'd think could even be in this discussion are Bulger and McNabb, and Bulger is the same style.

Bulger and Big Ben are not even close to being a similar style. Bulger does not move out of the pocket like Ben. He is also vastly better than Big Ben in the pocket.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:08 PM
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Granted, I don't watch many Rams games, but I never thought of Bulger as a similar QB.

I always thought he was a stand in the pocket guy...


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tdippo
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:10 PM
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And I'll get killed for this, but I still like Eli Manning. Over the course of his career, I believe Ben and him will have similar numbers.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:10 PM
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Whatever...my point is that I'm trying to figure just what 8-9 QB's you actually think are better than Ben...I gave you 4, but who are the others?


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:11 PM
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The style you prefer is clearly that of the innanimate carbon rod.



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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:17 PM
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DJF, I am speaking from from my experiences. I did not like Quarterbacks who looked to get out of the pocket. I do prefer a guy who can stand in there and make his progressions. I also understand that you play to your strengths. And they do that with Big Ben. In my opinion, if you continue to look to move out of the pocket, bad things will happen, i.e. turnovers and injuries. And we all know Doumit and Big Ben get injured about as often as any players that ever played sports in Pittsburgh.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:18 PM
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QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 08:17 PM)
DJF, I am speaking from from my experiences. I did not like Quarterbacks who looked to get out of the pocket. I do prefer a guy who can stand in there and make his progressions. I also understand that you play to your strengths. And they do that with Big Ben. In my opinion, if you continue to look to move out of the pocket, bad things will happen, i.e. turnovers and injuries. And we all know Doumit and Big Ben get injured about as often as any players that ever played sports in Pittsburgh.

Kendrell Bell disagrees.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE
n my opinion, if you continue to look to move out of the pocket, bad things will happen, i.e. turnovers and injuries.


Because those things never happen when you stand in the pocket and take shots to your sternum.


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pensteel
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 10 2007, 08:18 PM)
QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 08:17 PM)
DJF, I am speaking from from my experiences.  I did not like Quarterbacks who looked to get out of the pocket.  I do prefer a guy who can stand in there and make his progressions.  I also understand that you play to your strengths.  And they do that with Big Ben.  In my opinion, if you continue to look to move out of the pocket, bad things will happen, i.e. turnovers and injuries.  And we all know Doumit and Big Ben get injured about as often as any players that ever played sports in Pittsburgh.

Kendrell Bell disagrees.

Duce Staley is especially offended.
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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:22 PM
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1. Manning
2. Palmer
3. Brady
4. Brees
5. Rivers
6. Eli Manning
7. Romo
8. Big Ben
9. Hasselbeck
10. JP Losman-- just kidding


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:23 PM
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QUOTE
5. Rivers
6. Eli Manning
7. Romo






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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 08:22 PM)
1. Manning
2. Palmer
3. Brady
4. Brees
5. Rivers
6. Eli Manning
7. Romo
8. Big Ben
9. Hasselbeck
10. JP Losman-- just kidding

Rivers was SO impressive yesterday. I'd like to see the guy play more than ONE full season before calling him a top 5 QB.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:25 PM
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I'm not sure how in one post you can talk about analyzing things objectively, and then put Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo and Eli Manning ahead of not only Roethlisberger, but Matt Hasselbeck as well.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 06:22 PM)
6.  Eli Manning

If Eli's last name were Smith and he didn't play in NY, would anyone even know who he was? Seriously, he's about as good as Alex Smith right now.
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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:26 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 01:19 AM)
QUOTE
n my opinion, if you continue to look to move out of the pocket, bad things will happen, i.e. turnovers and injuries.


Because those things never happen when you stand in the pocket and take shots to your sternum.

Listen, if you want to make this a pissing match, feel free. I just was expressing my preference. You want to be a douche, go ahead. Im not going to make this into a I played and you didnt arguement. I was simply stating my preference. I respect that you dont like my opinion and that is ok, that is why it is a message board.

And to my point, when has Manning, Palmer, or Brady been sidelined?

Yes, Palmer was, but the others?


And Bulger was supposed to be 7. Big Ben 8. Romo 9. Hasselback 10.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (penguin8334 @ Sep 11 2007, 01:25 AM)
QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 06:22 PM)
6.  Eli Manning

If Eli's last name were Smith and he didn't play in NY, would anyone even know who he was? Seriously, he's about as good as Alex Smith right now.

Your opinion Penguin, just stating mine. And as I said earlier, I knew I would get killed for that, and it is ok by me.

Ill still let you cuddle with me.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:28 PM
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QUOTE (herrmorpheus @ Sep 10 2007, 07:27 PM)
...
The University of Buffalo could beat the Browns.

.

clearly you did not read DJF's blog recently.

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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:29 PM
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QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 08:26 PM)

And to my point, when has Manning, Palmer, or Brady been sidelined?

Yes, Palmer was, but the others?

um, manning dislocated his shoulder yesterday



Also, way waaaaay too early to put Rivers that high on a list like this, let him get another season under his belt or actually do something in the playoffs. Eli is not a great QB, he's average at best and he's very inaccurate. His saving grace is that Burress is 9.5 feet tall and can actually get to the balls that eli launches over everyone's head. Romo may or may not be better than Ben, jury is still out on that one.


To say Ben is injury prone or whatever the claim was...a motorcycle accident, appendectomy, helmet to the sternum and a helmet straight into his knee while his foot is planted don't make a person injury prone. If he was constantly straining a hammy or had herniated discs constantly, then yes he would be injury prone.


I'm not calling ben elite, he's a good step or two below peyton, palmer and brady, but he's certainly better than average and most definately a top 10 QB, probably no lower than 7th.

but that's just my opinion
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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 06:27 PM)
Your opinion Penguin, just stating mine. And as I said earlier, I knew I would get killed for that, and it is ok by me.

Ill still let you cuddle with me.

You're so sweet. But do I still need to call you Mark Hipple? It's kinda creepy.
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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:31 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 01:25 AM)
I'm not sure how in one post you can talk about analyzing things objectively, and then put Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo and Eli Manning ahead of not only Roethlisberger, but Matt Hasselbeck as well.

Once again THIS IS MY PREFERENCE!!! And for NYPirate look at Big Bens games against Baltimore, all of them. He has been so very impressive.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:33 PM
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How many Quarterbacks do play good against Baltimore?


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:35 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 06:33 PM)
How many Quarterbacks do play good against Baltimore?

Or against Chicago?
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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 01:33 AM)
How many Quarterbacks do play good against Baltimore?

So this is your defense now? How bout the Raiders? Chargers?


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:37 PM
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What defense? You're looking at his games against the top defense in the NFL and using that to say he's not that good. That's crazy. If how QB's play against Baltimore is how we're measuring them, then there is a ton of shitty Quarterbacks around the NFL.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (penguin8334 @ Sep 11 2007, 01:35 AM)
QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 06:33 PM)
How many Quarterbacks do play good against Baltimore?

Or against Chicago?

Thanks for saying it so I didnt have to. Rivers is good. Name there 2 starting receivers. Im sure most of you cant.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 01:37 AM)
What defense? You're looking at his games against the top defense in the NFL and using that to say he's not that good. That's crazy. If how QB's play against Baltimore is how we're measuring them, then there is a ton of shitty Quarterbacks around the NFL.

Hey asshole, to be an elite quarterback, you have to perform against elite defenses. I think you are proving my point.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:38 PM
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Vincent Jackson. Eric Parker (healthy). Malcolm Floyd.

And when you're throwing to LT and AG for 200 completions that helps things too...


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 01:38 AM)
Vincent Jackson. Eric Parker (healthy). Malcolm Floyd.

And when you're throwing to LT and AG for 200 completions that helps things too...

So now its a Philip Rivers debate?


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:45 PM
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Career QB Rating for people discussed earlier in posts.

Romo 98.9
Peyton 94.6
Palmer 91.5
Bulger 90.8
Roethelisberger 88.9
Brady 88.9
Rivers 89.5
Brees 87.0
Hasselbeck 85.4
McNabb 84.9
Favre 84.9
Eli 74.4


(For what it's worth, Ben has the highest yards per completion on this list. Guess he's not inflating his completion percentage with Claussen-esque dumps to the RB)

Take it for what it's worth. Romo has far fewer starts and some slightly inflated numbers, but there's the breakdown of the people mentioned earlier
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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE
Hey asshole, to be an elite quarterback, you have to perform against elite defenses.


Which is why you have Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning and Tony Romo in your top 8.

QUOTE
So now its a Philip Rivers debate?


If you're going to put him in the top-5, yes.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 01:46 AM)
QUOTE
Hey asshole, to be an elite quarterback, you have to perform against elite defenses.


Which is why you have Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning and Tony Romo in your top 8.

QUOTE
So now its a Philip Rivers debate?


If you're going to put him in the top-5, yes.

Rivers has played 1 full season, so yes, he has more to prove. I prefer Eli Manning, so that is why he is ahead of Big Ben. If you want to place Almighty Ben number 7, then feel free. Rivers single handedly defeated the Steelers last season. I guess it was because the Steelers were an average defense.

Ben had a 78.4 QB rating last season. Oh thats right, its because he was riding his motorcycle, or his appendix burst, or it was a hurt finger. The thing I hate most about and probably why I am jaded by this guy, is that everyone makes excuses for him.


And Penguin, I would say McNabb is better, but he is black, so he cant be on the list.


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tdippo
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:57 PM
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And in his first season, Rivers threw 460 passes with a passer rating of 92. Big Ben threw almost half as many, and posted a 98.

Keep going to the LT arguement, as awesome as tomlinson is, Rivers still can move the ball through the air.

While Willie Parker is nowhere near LT, the Chargers and the Steelers play similar offensive styles.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 09:58 PM
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You honestly don't see your double standard here? You're putting Rivers in the top-5 after one season, and pushing Roethlisberger down after one bad season which followed two historic seasons.

You don't see why someone might have an issue with that?

You're picking out random games here and there and using them as the end all measuring stick. At least that's the way it seems.

If the definition of an eltite QB is top-5 (and I think it is) then Ben Roethlisberger isn't elite...but he's sure as shit better and proven more than Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers and Tony Romo.



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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:00 PM
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no offense but your arguement doesn't make much sense.

You say that Rivers has only played 1 full season and has more to prove. Roethelisberger had 1 bad season (posted ratings of 98+ his first 2 years) but that's enough to drop him below rivers?


and yes, I do realize that it is only your opinion on which QB is better, i'm just not following your rationale.
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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 08:58 PM)
If the definition of an eltite QB is top-5 (and I think it is) then Ben Roethlisberger isn't elite...but he's sure as shit better and proven more than Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers and Tony Romo.

+1


and you beat me to it with the double standard response, damn you
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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:03 PM
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And I think it's a tremendous plus for Rivers to have two of the best players in the league lining up with him on offense. And that doesn't include Mcneil and Hardwick who are absolutely incredible lineman.



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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:04 PM
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And for the record, I really like Rivers.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:05 PM
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Regardless of how good someone believes Rivers to be, you simply can not ingore the fact he plays with LT. As quite possibly the greatest running back to play football, he can't help but make the quarterback better.
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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:06 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 10 2007, 04:29 PM)
I think he if played in the vaunted BigTen in college he would be better received today.

Big Ben dives too much.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:07 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 01:58 AM)
You honestly don't see your double standard here? You're putting Rivers in the top-5 after one season, and pushing Roethlisberger down after one bad season which followed two historic seasons.

You don't see why someone might have an issue with that?

You're picking out random games here and there and using them as the end all measuring stick. At least that's the way it seems.

If the definition of an eltite QB is top-5 (and I think it is) then Ben Roethlisberger isn't elite...but he's sure as shit better and proven more than Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers and Tony Romo.

Im not going to go back on anything I said. I prefer Eli Manning, I guess that is a crime by you, that is fine. Philip Rivers in my opinion is better, because he plays my style of quarterback. That is what I started this by saying. You made it into a debate to get Big Ben in the Top 5. As far as pointing out games, I pointed out games to enforce the point that Ben is good against average defenses, but he far from good against quality defenses. If you want to disagree, that is your opinion.

You are turning this into what certain people have proven. You are pointing out the historical start to his career. Some people take longer to develop. Maybe I will eat crow with Rivers and Manning. I am ok with that. However, just because you are short sighted to looking at the overall position, that is on you. Rivers and Romo are in year 2. IF they would win the Super Bowl this season, does that make them on par with Roethlisberger? By your standards, yes.


And I could go to more games with Ben than Baltimore. Aggressive blitzing defenses expose Ben. Watch the films. I wont back down on that.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE (penguin8334 @ Sep 11 2007, 02:05 AM)
Regardless of how good someone believes Rivers to be, you simply can not ingore the fact he plays with LT. As quite possibly the greatest running back to play football, he can't help but make the quarterback better.

I dont disagree with that, but the Steelers have rushed for at or over 2000 yards in Ben's early career. They have similar team rushing stats.

LT is just leaps and bounds better out of the backfield catching the ball. There is no disputing that.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE
You made it into a debate to get Big Ben in the Top 5.


No I didn't. Because I wouldn't put him in the top 5. I wouldn't put Rivers, Eli or Romo in there either. Or ahead of Roethlisberger.



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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 11 2007, 02:00 AM)
no offense but your arguement doesn't make much sense.

You say that Rivers has only played 1 full season and has more to prove. Roethelisberger had 1 bad season (posted ratings of 98+ his first 2 years) but that's enough to drop him below rivers?


and yes, I do realize that it is only your opinion on which QB is better, i'm just not following your rationale.

I get what you are saying, this conversation has just got away from my original point, thus, why I am not a lawyer.

I do think Rivers is/will be better. I like his pocket presense. I like his poise. He is not an arrogant fuck. He know how to make reads.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:12 PM
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And again, your first post in this thread was about analysing this objectively...and now you're talking about your opinion, what you see, what you feel, what's in your gut, etc. etc. etc...


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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 02:11 AM)
QUOTE
You made it into a debate to get Big Ben in the Top 5.


No I didn't. Because I wouldn't put him in the top 5. I wouldn't put Rivers, Eli or Romo in there either. Or ahead of Roethlisberger.

AS I pointed out earlier, Bulger was supposed to be 7. Romo was supposed to be my nine, so eliminate Romo from this discussion.


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Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 11 2007, 12:32 AM)
To say his elite is an overstatement. To say that he is a very good quarterback would be more like it. If you actually analyze his performance objectively, Ben is a very average pocket passer. If you contain him, and make him go through is progressions, he is average. He does not use his check downs and gets rattled on anything that isnt an out pattern. Outside of the pocket he is an excellent player, he improvises well and makes things happen. Ben is solid, his record early on was indicitive of the players that he had around him, if you all remember, his offense in his freshman season was remedial. His Super Bowl season was solid, however, the offense went as well as he did. Last season was his fault. Ben's head was ridiculously big, that cannot be denied. Do not defend him, he was a douchebag in the offseason.

We were analyzing Big Ben's performance, you chose to add these others into the debate. If you read the above, that was my objective analysis of Big Ben. Thus, it is an opinion.


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My objective analysis is that he's pretty damn good. I like his poise as well.



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pensteel
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 10:52 PM
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AAA Ball
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I fail to see how the ability to make plays when the pocket breaks down and he's about to be sacked is a fault.
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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:02 PM
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When all is set and done, Tony Romo will be a far better NFL QB than Big Ben.

And it's not intended as a shot at Ben, who I'd put somewhere in the 8-10+ range if I really sat down and thought about it, but Romo is going to be really good. And better.


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coolpapacole
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:11 PM
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Eli Manning has a career 54.5% completion percentage. That is very, very bad.

BTW, Tony Romo is 27. Ben is 25. Just found that interesting. Oh, and if Ben had done what he has so far for the Giants, even Peyton Manning would seem under-exposed by the media in comparison.
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tdippo
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:12 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 11 2007, 03:02 AM)
When all is set and done, Tony Romo will be a far better NFL QB than Big Ben.

And it's not intended as a shot at Ben, who I'd put somewhere in the 8-10+ range if I really sat down and thought about it, but Romo is going to be really good. And better.

SHHHHHHHH.


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buccosmfg
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:16 PM
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this thread should be moved to

www.maximumgrilledelimanningisbetterthanroethlisbergercausetdippoandthemaximumgrilleddictionarysaysso.com

or

www.maximumgrilledRiversisatop5QBandstillhasmoretoprove.com


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:17 PM
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QUOTE (buccosmfg @ Sep 11 2007, 03:16 AM)
this thread should be moved to

www.maximumgrilledelimanningisbetterthanroethlisbergercausetdippoandthemaximumgrilleddictionarysaysso.com

or

www.maximumgrilledRiversisatop5QBandstillhasmoretoprove.com

Can we link those to the homepage?


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:23 PM
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I'm just thankful Vince Young's name hasn't worked its way in here...


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penguin8334
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 08:23 PM)
I'm just thankful Vince Young's name hasn't worked its way in here...

Only because LHB isn't online.
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herrmorpheus
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:26 PM
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DAS BOOT!
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QUOTE (coolpapacole @ Sep 10 2007, 11:11 PM)
Eli Manning has a career 54.5% completion percentage. That is very, very bad.

BTW, Tony Romo is 27. Ben is 25. Just found that interesting. Oh, and if Ben had done what he has so far for the Giants, even Peyton Manning would seem under-exposed by the media in comparison.

Age means little.

Just tell that to Warren Moon.


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:28 PM
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Just to take things in a slightly different direction, I think in Peyton Manning, we are watching the greatest quarterback to ever play the game.


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:30 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 03:28 AM)
Just to take things in a slightly different direction, I think in Peyton Manning, we are watching the greatest quarterback to ever play the game.

Agreed.

It doesn't take soemone who knows a lot about the position (which I don't) to understand his greatness.


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burghboi
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:30 PM
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on the money
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1) Ben is not anywhere near elite.

2) Ben has the capability to be efficient, it's just...what have you done for me lately, lately, Ben has a .500 record including last year.

3) A list of QB's Ben is not better than ryt now...in no particular order

Manning
Brees
Bulger
Brady
Romo
Cutler
Pennington
Palmer
...
THose are 8 guys I'm comfortable with saying are better than Big Ben...

Ben is in the class ryt now of Eli, Rivers, McNabb, Young, Kitna

All are pretty good, but none have proven to be consistently successful over a season's at a time...partly do to inexperience.


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mzimmerman81
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:32 PM
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QUOTE (burghboi @ Sep 10 2007, 11:30 PM)
1) Ben is not anywhere near elite.

2) Ben has the capability to be efficient, it's just...what have you done for me lately, lately, Ben has a .500 record including last year.

3) A list of QB's Ben is not better than ryt now...in no particular order

Manning
Brees
Bulger
Brady
Romo
Cutler
Pennington
Palmer
...
THose are 8 guys I'm comfortable with saying are better than Big Ben...

Ben is in the class ryt now of Eli, Rivers, McNabb, Young, Kitna

All are pretty good, but none have proven to be consistently successful over a season's at a time...partly do to inexperience.

There are so many things wrong with this post that it would take me the entire night to critique them.

Unfortunately I need to go to bed. So you are saved until the morning.

The mere fact you have Chad Pennington ahead of Ben immediately tosses your credibility straight out the window.


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE
Cutler
Pennington


Jesus christ.


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mzimmerman81
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:33 PM
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Also the fact you have McNabb in the same class as Vince Young, Kitna and Eli is well....


Moronic

Holy Hell the more I read that the worse it is


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 10 2007, 11:35 PM
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Manning. Brady. Palmer.

Those guys are elite.

If you told me Bulger, Hasselbeck, Brees..hell, even a healthy Mcnaab, were better than Roethlisberger, I wouldn't disagree.


But when you start throwing Chad Pennington and Jay Cutler out there...well. That's when you get threads like this.



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