OT: I'm tired of it, Big Ben IS elite
AltimusPrime |
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Big Ben IS an elite QB. I'm tired of this shit. He IS. Fuck, in his first two seasons the Steelers went: 15-1 11-5 and a Super Bowl. (best two seasons by a QBack EVER, nonetheless the first two seasons) And
he threw us through the AFC playoffs. Period. He threw us though Cincy,
Denver, Indy. He was less than stellar in the SB, granted, but he ended
up the youngest to win it. And then the third season he was
damn near killed, THEN had an emergency appendecotmy, then a
concussion, and he was rushed back too soon and the team STILL finished
8-8. His yards/attempt are 3rd best IN HISTORY. In HISTORY. And never
mind his seemingly-Elway-esque ability to come back. I'm sick and tired of Ben not being considered an elite QB. Take a look at this article: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Article.php?Page=1562From the article: "Roethlisberger’s
87.9 passer rating stands as the ninth-best in NFL history – one spot
behind Brady (88.4) and one spot ahead of Drew Brees (87.5), two
quarterbacks you routinely hear mentioned among the game’s elite. With
just 1,032 career pass attempts, Roethlisberger isn’t officially on the
all-time passer rating list just yet. The NFL requires 1,500 pass
attempts for consideration. But it’s quite possible he’ll reach that
mark by the end of the 2007 season. Roethlisberger attemped 469 passes
last year. (See the whole list of all-time passer rating leaders here.)
More importantly, though, is Roethlisberger’s amazing 8.25
yards per pass attempt. Topping 8.0 YPA is virtually unheard of at the
pro level. In fact, his amazing 8.25 YPA stands as third-best
in NFL history, behind just two of the greatest quarterbacks ever: Otto
Graham and Sid Luckman. These are no ordinary Ottos and Sids who
Roethlisberger finds himself among. In 18 years of NFL play, Graham and
Luckman appeared in 11 championship games, winning seven of those title
tilts. Just five quarterbacks in NFL history topped 8.0 YPA
for their career. There are no Swatches on this list of NFL
record-setters, just the sweet dulcet chimes of Rolexes, Bulovas and
Big Bens. TOP 5 ALL-TIME PASSING YPA LEADERS Player (Years) Yards Att. YPA Title Games Titles Otto Graham (1950-55) 13,499 1,565 8.63 6 3 Sid Luckman (1939-50) 14,686 1,744 8.42 5 4 Ben Roethlisberger (2004-present) 8,519 1,032 8.25 1 1 Kurt Warner (1998-present) 20,591 2,508 8.21 2 1 Norm Van Brocklin (1949-60) 23,611 2,895 8.16 5 2 - Among players with a minimum 40 NFL games and 1,000 pass attempts - Bold indicates HOF quarterbacks To
put this list in prosaic terms, among all the quarterbacks who have
taken a snap in the NFL over the past 50 years, none have carved up
opposing defenses with their passing arm as efficiently as
Roethlisberger. ----------------------- And yet Ben
isn't mentioned among elite NFL QB's by most publications. Even local
writers think we need to "control" the amount of attempts Ben makes in
order to win. The Steelers went 15-1 his first year, then won the Superbowl his second. Under most circumstances, these are the best two first seasons anyone ever had. Then,
take the above article, and you can see that even after his third
(accident, appendectomy, concussion) season, this strong-armed,
quick-footed, game-winning QB should be talked about as among the best
in the current NFL. Fuck the doubters. Ben is an elite QB. Maybe
no Peyton or no Brady (although in some ways he has outperformed them)
but definitely he is an elite QB.
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burghboi |
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Altimus, shut up. Shut up, don't talk football, leave that to me. Keep
w/e credibility you have and never talk about football again.
Big
Ben had an awsome rookie/sophmore season because he played among a
solid line, D, and skilled players that completely took the load off
him. When Bennie was the go to guy early last season to carry the
offense, he floundered...into a season ending 7-8 record as a starter,
the most INT's by any other QB in the league, and that leaves a lot to
desire.
The Steelers and Ben had only a good game against the
Browns, while Ben was very effective, he got to pick on a very young
secondary with Hines, Heath, and Santonio spreading the field.
IMO,
upon replaying the game, Ben threw 4 bad passes, 1 of which should have
been picked had the defender turned his head to go after the ball. The
recievers dropped 4 balls, he threw the ball away twice, and the last
incomplete pass of the Steelers day was a ball defended by Sean Jones.
(2 of the 4 bad passes of Ben's day were also defended by Browns
defenders and anotherr was thrown into triple coverage to Hines...it
was the play that Hines slipped...but Ben had an underneath guy open,
Heath Miller)
Yeah, Ben had one of the best days of his career
yesterday, but all players have these days. Ben did it against a shitty
team; Until he has solid performences against defenses like the Pats,
Ravens, Jags, etc, he cannot be considered any more than an above
average starting QB.
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burghboi |
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on the money

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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 07:03 PM) | QUOTE | When Bennie was the go to guy early last season to carry the offense, he floundered |
Yeah. He had nothing else going on then...
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would you like to elaborate?
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buccobenny |
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QUOTE (burghboi @ Sep 10 2007, 07:04 PM) | QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 07:03 PM) | QUOTE | When Bennie was the go to guy early last season to carry the offense, he floundered |
Yeah. He had nothing else going on then...
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would you like to elaborate?
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Do you really need him to???
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mzimmerman81 |
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QUOTE (buccobenny @ Sep 10 2007, 08:07 PM) | QUOTE (burghboi @ Sep 10 2007, 07:04 PM) | QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 07:03 PM) | QUOTE | When Bennie was the go to guy early last season to carry the offense, he floundered |
Yeah. He had nothing else going on then...
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would you like to elaborate?
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Do you really need him to???
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Yeah really, between:
Ben had a motorcycle wreck and appendectomy Eli played against Peyton There were two black coaches in the super bowl and Every game Reggie Bush played
Pretty much all you heard on a regular basis on ESPN
that and during Steeler games:
Gardocki hasn't had a punt blocked in 4355565421 punts
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To say his elite is an overstatement. To say that he is a very good
quarterback would be more like it. If you actually analyze his
performance objectively, Ben is a very average pocket passer. If you
contain him, and make him go through is progressions, he is average. He
does not use his check downs and gets rattled on anything that isnt an
out pattern. Outside of the pocket he is an excellent player, he
improvises well and makes things happen. Ben is solid, his record early
on was indicitive of the players that he had around him, if you all
remember, his offense in his freshman season was remedial. His Super
Bowl season was solid, however, the offense went as well as he did.
Last season was his fault. Ben's head was ridiculously big, that cannot
be denied. Do not defend him, he was a douchebag in the offseason.
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 12:43 AM) |
Still, when you're averaging over 8 yards per pass attempt, keeping a
QB rating close to 90, and playing in an AFC Title game and winning A
Super Bowl within your first three years in the NFL (Not first three
years as a starter, but first three years period) you're pretty fucking
good. Talented surroundings or remedial offense be damned.
You're good. REally good. |
I'm not disputing the fact that he is good, but he is not even a Top 5,
maybe even 10 QB in the league. If he plays within himself, he will be.
In my opinion, he needs to improve his pocket presence. He has happy
feet and wants to manuver. Watch games that we lose, i.e. Baltimore
last season, he was in the pocket the entire game. His reads are not
always quality, especially against aggressive defenses.
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QUOTE (u0007890 @ Sep 11 2007, 01:06 AM) | QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 09:02 PM) |
It was meant to be as who I would prefer, and there are other QB's that
I would prefer. Big Ben would be 8 or 9 on my list. Not
saying I dont like him, I just prefer a different style of
quarterback.
That being said, he will excel under Tomlin, they seem to have outstanding rapport. |
Who
would you prefer? And what style of QB is your preference? The only
other QB's I'd think could even be in this discussion are Bulger and
McNabb, and Bulger is the same style.
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Bulger and Big Ben are not even close to being a similar style. Bulger
does not move out of the pocket like Ben. He is also vastly better than
Big Ben in the pocket.
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 01:19 AM) | QUOTE | n my opinion, if you continue to look to move out of the pocket, bad things will happen, i.e. turnovers and injuries. |
Because those things never happen when you stand in the pocket and take shots to your sternum.
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Listen, if you want to make this a pissing match, feel free. I just was
expressing my preference. You want to be a douche, go ahead. Im not
going to make this into a I played and you didnt arguement. I was
simply stating my preference. I respect that you dont like my opinion
and that is ok, that is why it is a message board.
And to my point, when has Manning, Palmer, or Brady been sidelined?
Yes, Palmer was, but the others?
And Bulger was supposed to be 7. Big Ben 8. Romo 9. Hasselback 10.
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QUOTE (penguin8334 @ Sep 11 2007, 01:25 AM) | QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 06:22 PM) | 6. Eli Manning |
If
Eli's last name were Smith and he didn't play in NY, would anyone even
know who he was? Seriously, he's about as good as Alex Smith right now.
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Your opinion Penguin, just stating mine. And as I said earlier, I knew I would get killed for that, and it is ok by me.
Ill still let you cuddle with me.
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QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 10 2007, 08:26 PM) | And to my point, when has Manning, Palmer, or Brady been sidelined?
Yes, Palmer was, but the others? |
um, manning dislocated his shoulder yesterday
Also,
way waaaaay too early to put Rivers that high on a list like this, let
him get another season under his belt or actually do something in the
playoffs. Eli is not a great QB, he's average at best and he's very
inaccurate. His saving grace is that Burress is 9.5 feet tall and can
actually get to the balls that eli launches over everyone's head. Romo
may or may not be better than Ben, jury is still out on that one.
To
say Ben is injury prone or whatever the claim was...a motorcycle
accident, appendectomy, helmet to the sternum and a helmet straight
into his knee while his foot is planted don't make a person injury
prone. If he was constantly straining a hammy or had herniated discs
constantly, then yes he would be injury prone.
I'm not
calling ben elite, he's a good step or two below peyton, palmer and
brady, but he's certainly better than average and most definately a top
10 QB, probably no lower than 7th.
but that's just my opinion
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QUOTE (penguin8334 @ Sep 11 2007, 01:35 AM) | QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 10 2007, 06:33 PM) | How many Quarterbacks do play good against Baltimore? |
Or against Chicago?
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Thanks for saying it so I didnt have to. Rivers is good. Name there 2 starting receivers. Im sure most of you cant.
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QUOTE | Hey asshole, to be an elite quarterback, you have to perform against elite defenses. |
Which is why you have Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning and Tony Romo in your top 8.
QUOTE | So now its a Philip Rivers debate? |
If you're going to put him in the top-5, yes.
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 01:46 AM) | QUOTE | Hey asshole, to be an elite quarterback, you have to perform against elite defenses. |
Which is why you have Phillip Rivers, Eli Manning and Tony Romo in your top 8.
QUOTE | So now its a Philip Rivers debate? |
If you're going to put him in the top-5, yes.
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Rivers has played 1 full season, so yes, he has more to prove. I prefer
Eli Manning, so that is why he is ahead of Big Ben. If you want to
place Almighty Ben number 7, then feel free. Rivers single handedly
defeated the Steelers last season. I guess it was because the Steelers
were an average defense.
Ben had a 78.4 QB rating last season.
Oh thats right, its because he was riding his motorcycle, or his
appendix burst, or it was a hurt finger. The thing I hate most about
and probably why I am jaded by this guy, is that everyone makes excuses
for him.
And Penguin, I would say McNabb is better, but he is black, so he cant be on the list.
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 01:58 AM) |
You honestly don't see your double standard here? You're putting Rivers
in the top-5 after one season, and pushing Roethlisberger down after
one bad season which followed two historic seasons.
You don't see why someone might have an issue with that?
You're picking out random games here and there and using them as the end all measuring stick. At least that's the way it seems.
If
the definition of an eltite QB is top-5 (and I think it is) then Ben
Roethlisberger isn't elite...but he's sure as shit better and proven
more than Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers and Tony Romo. |
Im not going to go back on anything I said. I prefer Eli Manning, I
guess that is a crime by you, that is fine. Philip Rivers in my opinion
is better, because he plays my style of quarterback. That is what I
started this by saying. You made it into a debate to get Big Ben in the
Top 5. As far as pointing out games, I pointed out games to enforce the
point that Ben is good against average defenses, but he far from good
against quality defenses. If you want to disagree, that is your
opinion.
You are turning this into what certain people have
proven. You are pointing out the historical start to his career. Some
people take longer to develop. Maybe I will eat crow with Rivers and
Manning. I am ok with that. However, just because you are short sighted
to looking at the overall position, that is on you. Rivers and Romo are
in year 2. IF they would win the Super Bowl this season, does that make
them on par with Roethlisberger? By your standards, yes.
And
I could go to more games with Ben than Baltimore. Aggressive blitzing
defenses expose Ben. Watch the films. I wont back down on that.
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 11 2007, 02:11 AM) | QUOTE | You made it into a debate to get Big Ben in the Top 5. |
No
I didn't. Because I wouldn't put him in the top 5. I wouldn't put
Rivers, Eli or Romo in there either. Or ahead of Roethlisberger.
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AS I pointed out earlier, Bulger was supposed to be 7. Romo was
supposed to be my nine, so eliminate Romo from this discussion.
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QUOTE (tdippo @ Sep 11 2007, 12:32 AM) |
To say his elite is an overstatement. To say that he is a very good
quarterback would be more like it. If you actually analyze his
performance objectively, Ben is a very average pocket passer. If you
contain him, and make him go through is progressions, he is average. He
does not use his check downs and gets rattled on anything that isnt an
out pattern. Outside of the pocket he is an excellent player, he
improvises well and makes things happen. Ben is solid, his record early
on was indicitive of the players that he had around him, if you all
remember, his offense in his freshman season was remedial. His Super
Bowl season was solid, however, the offense went as well as he did.
Last season was his fault. Ben's head was ridiculously big, that cannot
be denied. Do not defend him, he was a douchebag in the offseason. |
We were analyzing Big Ben's performance, you chose to add these others
into the debate. If you read the above, that was my objective analysis
of Big Ben. Thus, it is an opinion.
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burghboi |
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1) Ben is not anywhere near elite.
2)
Ben has the capability to be efficient, it's just...what have you done
for me lately, lately, Ben has a .500 record including last year.
3) A list of QB's Ben is not better than ryt now...in no particular order
Manning Brees Bulger Brady Romo Cutler Pennington Palmer ... THose are 8 guys I'm comfortable with saying are better than Big Ben...
Ben is in the class ryt now of Eli, Rivers, McNabb, Young, Kitna
All are pretty good, but none have proven to be consistently successful over a season's at a time...partly do to inexperience.
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mzimmerman81 |
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QUOTE (burghboi @ Sep 10 2007, 11:30 PM) | 1) Ben is not anywhere near elite.
2)
Ben has the capability to be efficient, it's just...what have you done
for me lately, lately, Ben has a .500 record including last year.
3) A list of QB's Ben is not better than ryt now...in no particular order
Manning Brees Bulger Brady Romo Cutler Pennington Palmer ... THose are 8 guys I'm comfortable with saying are better than Big Ben...
Ben is in the class ryt now of Eli, Rivers, McNabb, Young, Kitna
All are pretty good, but none have proven to be consistently successful over a season's at a time...partly do to inexperience. |
There are so many things wrong with this post that it would take me the entire night to critique them.
Unfortunately I need to go to bed. So you are saved until the morning.
The mere fact you have Chad Pennington ahead of Ben immediately tosses your credibility straight out the window.
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