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Triangle Bullet SI Players poll, Seriously, how stupid are these players?
monarch0
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 07:56 PM
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There was a poll in SI that asked the most meaningful hitting statistic. Much like the retarded pitchers answers, the players said RBIs is the most meaningful, ahead of on base percentage.

OPS was 4th. 4th!

Then this jackass that was linked in the other thread talks about it.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writ...ay.scoop/2.html

"Those who keep writing me about what a meaningless stat RBIs are, please note that an SI player poll found that 41 percent of players said RBIs are the most important stat. And, no, I didn't put anyone up to it."

Uhh, just because a bunch of the players say it, doesn't vindicate you. Baseball players are, on the whole, a very stupid portion of society. They don't even "get" their own game. They might know strategy and situations, but they don't know what makes things work. I can't believe they are this dumb.


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buccosmfg
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 08:55 PM
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I will at this point state again that having been a major league player should in no way be considered criteria for being a manager. The fact that innings pitched and RBI's are considered the most meaningful statistics is just unbelievable.



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penguin8334
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 09:04 PM
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Well in addition to 29 at bats, mvk's entire argument that ARod sucks in the post season was based on the fact Yankee fans boo him.

So yeah, people are fucking retarded.
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coolpapacole
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 09:10 PM
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OK, here is my attempt to justify the vote. RBI's are not the most meaningful way to evaluate how good a hitter is, but in some sense they are the most meaningful of the stats given. They are the most meaningful in the sense that RBI's show that your team actually scored a run. Runs directly impact winning, so they are extremely important. Of course, this completely falls apart when you see that runs finished last. Oh, well. I tried.
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mvk112
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE (penguin8334 @ Sep 27 2007, 08:04 PM)
Well in addition to 29 at bats, mvk's entire argument that ARod sucks in the post season was based on the fact Yankee fans boo him.

So yeah, people are fucking retarded.

where the fuck did i say that?

you are a major league dickhead.


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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE (monarch0 @ Sep 27 2007, 06:56 PM)


Uhh, just because a bunch of the players say it, doesn't vindicate you.  Baseball players are, on the whole, a very stupid portion of society.  They don't even "get" their own game.  They might know strategy and situations, but they don't know what makes things work.  I can't believe they are this dumb.

and just because a bunch of pencil pushing stat geeks push OPS and WHIP doesn't make it the end all be all of statistics. Nobody made a big deal about OPS and all these other bullshit numbers until nerds were able to use a computer and get away from their blow up dolls. So what did the geeks do? They came up with formulas to derive new statistics because they couldn't throw a ball or swing a bat to save their life. So go ahead and take your OPS's and WHIPs. I'll stick with AVG, HR's, RBI's, ERA, and that thing called Wins and Losses.


So now ballplayers are "dumb" because they don't sit around a water cooler saying "I have a better WHIP than you". That's a brilliant assessment. When do all of these stats border overanalization?


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:25 PM
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I'm feeling another epic thread.



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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:26 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:21 AM)
and just because a bunch of pencil pushing stat geeks push OPS and WHIP doesn't make it the end all be all of statistics. Nobody made a big deal about OPS and all these other bullshit numbers until nerds were able to use a computer and get away from their blow up dolls. So what did the geeks do? They came up with formulas to derive new statistics because they couldn't throw a ball or swing a bat to save their life. So go ahead and take your OPS's and WHIPs. I'll stick with AVG, HR's, RBI's, ERA, and that thing called Wins and Losses.


So now ballplayers are "dumb" because they don't sit around a water cooler saying "I have a better WHIP than you". That's a brilliant assessment. When do all of these stats border overanalization?

Wow, I can't believe we actually have a celebrity here at MGP.

Welcome, Mr. Morgan, you will quickly seek relief from the nerds around here from guys like MVK.


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jeffr92
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:27 PM
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I have to assume NYPirate played baseball passed little league. He may even have been on lrhotspot's team.
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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Sep 27 2007, 09:27 PM)
I have to assume NYPirate played baseball passed little league. He may even have been on lrhotspot's team.

Yes, I played "passed" Little League.

I tell you what, how about the stats geeks pick a team based on OPS. and WHIP and I'll pick a team based on traditional stats. 1 of 2 things will happen:

1) Both teams will be made up primarily of the same players showing that OPS and WHIP are nothing more than overanalization of statistics.

2) My team will kick the geek squads ass.


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE
I tell you what, how about the stats geeks pick a team based on OPS. and WHIP and I'll pick a team based on traditional stats.


Mark Shapiro and Dave Littlefield have been playing that game for years.



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CRIMHEAD
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:38 PM
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Fine, ignore the stats that actually correlate to runs scored and pay attention to stupid, pointless shit like average. If you want to be dumb and live in the old-school, alternate reality, that's your choice. But OBP is simply a better measure of offensive performance than average or RBIs or something else equally pointless.

If you want to bag on stat head for ignoring other things outside of just pure stats, fine. But if you want to declare stats have merit, yet want to focus on the WRONG stats, then you are an idiot.
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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:34 AM)
2) My team will kick the geek squads ass.

OK.

I'll draft Albert Pujols (101 RBI).

You can have Raul Ibanez (103).



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ecbenito
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 09:21 PM)
QUOTE (monarch0 @ Sep 27 2007, 06:56 PM)


Uhh, just because a bunch of the players say it, doesn't vindicate you.  Baseball players are, on the whole, a very stupid portion of society.  They don't even "get" their own game.  They might know strategy and situations, but they don't know what makes things work.  I can't believe they are this dumb.

and just because a bunch of pencil pushing stat geeks push OPS and WHIP doesn't make it the end all be all of statistics. Nobody made a big deal about OPS and all these other bullshit numbers until nerds were able to use a computer and get away from their blow up dolls. So what did the geeks do? They came up with formulas to derive new statistics because they couldn't throw a ball or swing a bat to save their life. So go ahead and take your OPS's and WHIPs. I'll stick with AVG, HR's, RBI's, ERA, and that thing called Wins and Losses.


So now ballplayers are "dumb" because they don't sit around a water cooler saying "I have a better WHIP than you". That's a brilliant assessment. When do all of these stats border overanalization?

don't you and greybeard have a cross to go burn in a colored person's front yard?
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JamesKPolk
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:43 PM
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Saying "nerds" can't be athletes is no more intelligent than saying athletes are illiterate. You can't have it both ways. So either your argument is strong and it's a battle of geeks versus goons, or your argument is idiotic.

The bottom line is, while statisticians may oftentimes lack experience playing baseball, baseball players often lack any legitimate background in statistics, so I really don't care what they think about the numbers. Statisticians aren't trying to teach players how to swing or throw - they're trying to tell people how to objectively evaluate performance. That has nothing to do with playing.

If you want to know how to best perform a function, turn to the expects on that topic. In this case, the experts aren't the people who know how to play - it's the people who know how to analyze playing. If you don't understand or like numbers, that doesn't make them any less useful - it just makes them less interesting to you.
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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:44 PM
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I hope Delmon Young can rack up 7 RBI in the last week of the season so he can lock in his awesome .731 OPS season.


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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:46 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 09:42 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:34 AM)
2) My team will kick the geek squads ass.

OK.

I'll draft Albert Pujols (101 RBI).

You can have Raul Ibanez (103).

Games played is not a new stat.

And the only person that would take Ibanez over Pujols is the person that thinks Jack Cust is a good ballplayer.


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CRIMHEAD
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:48 PM
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Statistically speaking, your team will lose. The geeks will win. Duh.

But your team will hit for a high average! Whoopie!
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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:49 PM
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QUOTE

Games played is not a new stat.


Pujols has actually played seven more games than Ibanez. Ibanez has two more RBI. What's your point?



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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:49 PM
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QUOTE (CRIMHEAD @ Sep 27 2007, 09:48 PM)
Statistically speaking, your team will lose. The geeks will win. Duh.

But your team will hit for a high average! Whoopie!

Where did I say I was picking a player soley on batting average?


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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:50 PM
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QUOTE (CRIMHEAD @ Sep 27 2007, 09:48 PM)
Statistically speaking, your team will lose.  The geeks will win.  Duh.

But your team will hit for a high average!  Whoopie!

Well I thought he's been injured most of the season, so my mistake.

And in the effort you took to prove me wrong, did you get an erection over the fact that you got to look at more stats!


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:51 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:46 AM)
And the only person that would take Ibanez over Pujols is the person that thinks Jack Cust is a good ballplayer.

1. You're right. Albert Pujols' 155 games have really been an RBI subtractor when you measure them up against Raul Ibanez' 149 games.

2. Right again, anyone who thinks .259/.410/.513 is a good ballplayer needs to have their head examined.


Son, you have a chance to take quite the rise up the retard chain in this thread. Don't let MVK down.


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ecbenito
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:52 PM
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I'm sure Ryan Braun is losing a lot of sleep because he has less RBI than adrian fucking beltre and therefore is not as good







defdog would be proud of you
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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 09:51 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:46 AM)
And the only person that would take Ibanez over Pujols is the person that thinks Jack Cust is a good ballplayer.

1. You're right. Albert Pujols' 155 games have really been an RBI subtractor when you measure them up against Raul Ibanez' 149 games.

2. Right again, anyone who thinks .259/.410/.513 is a good ballplayer needs to have their head examined.


Son, you have a chance to take quite the rise up the retard chain in this thread. Don't let MVK down.

Cust has done it for one year, and you're quick to be on his nuts. Nady has improved each year but yet he's no good?


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:54 PM
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Personally, I think Adam LaRoche is having an identical season as Todd Helton and Manny Ramirez.

Thoughts?


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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 09:52 PM)
I'm sure Ryan Braun is losing a lot of sleep because he has less RBI than adrian fucking beltre and therefore is not as good







defdog would be proud of you

Average his stats over 162 games and I think his stats would look better.


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:55 PM
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Mike Lowell is having a better season than Chipper Jones.

And let us not forget:

Jeff Francouer: 102 RBI
Albert Pujols: 101 RBI
Ryan Braun: 94 RBI

You lose, GEEKS!


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:53 AM)
Cust has done it for one year, and you're quick to be on his nuts. Nady has improved each year but yet he's no good?

Nady has 'improved each year' to the point where he can come within .105 OPS points of what is basically Custs rookie season, including about an .80 point difference in terms of getting on base.

Good comparison.


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:55 AM)
QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 09:52 PM)
I'm sure Ryan Braun is losing a lot of sleep because he has less RBI than adrian fucking beltre and therefore is not as good







defdog would be proud of you

Average his stats over 162 games and I think his stats would look better.

Sort of like if you average out Pujols' and Ibanez'?


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ecbenito
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 09:55 PM)
QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 09:52 PM)
I'm sure Ryan Braun is losing a lot of sleep because he has less RBI than adrian fucking beltre and therefore is not as good







defdog would be proud of you

Average his stats over 162 games and I think his stats would look better.

"Average his stats?? fuck that, I'm not a stat nerd"

-NYPirate
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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 09:54 PM)
Personally, I think Adam LaRoche is having an identical season as Todd Helton and Manny Ramirez.

Thoughts?

How can that be? Their OPS. is so much higher!


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:58 PM
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Jack Wilson: .297
Manny Ramirez: .296



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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:59 PM
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Well, Hanley Ramirez, you might be the MVP of the National League, but I think Jason Bay, Bengie Molina, Sammy Sosa, Orlando Cabrera, and Freddy Sanchez are all better offensive contributors.

But fear not, H-Ram, you got Vernon Wells (.708 OPS) by 1 RBI!


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ecbenito
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 27 2007, 09:58 PM)
Jack Wilson: .297
Manny Ramirez: .296

Can I play too?

Adam Dunn .264
Freddy Sanchez .304


clearly freddy > Dunn
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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 09:56 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:53 AM)
Cust has done it for one year, and you're quick to be on his nuts. Nady has improved each year but yet he's no good?

Nady has 'improved each year' to the point where he can come within .105 OPS points of what is basically Custs rookie season, including about an .80 point difference in terms of getting on base.

Good comparison.

Christ, you're not the same guy that said Craig Wilson is Carlos Lee are you? Let's have Cust play more than a full season and get dumped by a few more teams before we pronounce him god, k?


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:01 PM
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Reggie Willits: .296
Prince Fielder: .292


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 09:51 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:46 AM)
And the only person that would take Ibanez over Pujols is the person that thinks Jack Cust is a good ballplayer.

1. You're right. Albert Pujols' 155 games have really been an RBI subtractor when you measure them up against Raul Ibanez' 149 games.

2. Right again, anyone who thinks .259/.410/.513 is a good ballplayer needs to have their head examined.


Son, you have a chance to take quite the rise up the retard chain in this thread. Don't let MVK down.

Cust has done it for one year, and you're quick to be on his nuts. Nady has improved each year but yet he's no good?

Seriously? You think Nady is better than Cust?
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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:02 PM
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Again, show me these stupid examples all you want, but that still won't change a thing. Pick a team based on OPS and WHIP and I'll pick a team with traditional stats. I will win. Prove me wrong!


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:02 PM
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I don't know why you keep making snides at me like I'm some sort of OPS worshipper, I would be the first to tell you it's a flawed stat.

It's a statistical fact that getting on-base is almost 1.8 times as important to offensive success than hitting for power is. It's a stat made up for lazy people who want nothing to do with added math to weigh SLG and OBP properly.

With that being said, comparing RBI and OPS is sort of like comparing Raul Ibanez and Albert Pujols.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:02 PM
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Yuniesky Betencourt and his .289 average are having a better season than Carlos Pena and his .279 average.

YOU'RE GOING DOWN, NERDS!


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE
Prove me wrong!


What do you think we're doing?



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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:04 PM
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QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Sep 27 2007, 10:01 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 09:51 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:46 AM)
And the only person that would take Ibanez over Pujols is the person that thinks Jack Cust is a good ballplayer.

1. You're right. Albert Pujols' 155 games have really been an RBI subtractor when you measure them up against Raul Ibanez' 149 games.

2. Right again, anyone who thinks .259/.410/.513 is a good ballplayer needs to have their head examined.


Son, you have a chance to take quite the rise up the retard chain in this thread. Don't let MVK down.

Cust has done it for one year, and you're quick to be on his nuts. Nady has improved each year but yet he's no good?

Seriously? You think Nady is better than Cust?

That wasn't my point. My point was he's quick to put down Nady who has improved each year, but he'll jump all over Cust, who has been dumped by several teams, for 1 good season.

To answer your question, I don't know. But Nady was pretty damned good this year when he wasn't hurt.


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:06 PM
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Oh why hello, Curtis Granderson, I saw you were wondering why I was comparing you to Julio Lugo.

Granderson: 74 RBI
Lugo: 73 RBI

What was that Barry Bonds? Shut the fuck up. You have no business being in the same league as Julio Lugo. Pick up 7 RBI and maybe we can talk.

Same goes for you Alfonso Soriano. And Hunter Pence.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:06 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 27 2007, 10:03 PM)
QUOTE
Prove me wrong!


What do you think we're doing?

Circle Jerking? You've shown me nothing.

All you've shown is a bunch of dumb examples. Show me your OPS AllStars.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 03:04 AM)
But Nady was pretty damned good this year when he wasn't hurt.

And by 'pretty damned good' I'm assuming you meant, 'about .110 OPS points worse than Cust', right?


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 10:06 PM)
Oh why hello, Curtis Granderson, I saw you were wondering why I was comparing you to Julio Lugo.

Granderson: 74 RBI
Lugo: 73 RBI

What was that Barry Bonds? Shut the fuck up. You have no business being in the same league as Julio Lugo. Pick up 7 RBI and maybe we can talk.

Same goes for you Alfonso Soriano. And Hunter Pence.

Again, show me your OPS AllStars.

Is Craig Wilson batting cleanup? Or is he hitting in front of Carlos Lee?


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 11:04 PM)
QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Sep 27 2007, 10:01 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 09:51 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 02:46 AM)
And the only person that would take Ibanez over Pujols is the person that thinks Jack Cust is a good ballplayer.

1. You're right. Albert Pujols' 155 games have really been an RBI subtractor when you measure them up against Raul Ibanez' 149 games.

2. Right again, anyone who thinks .259/.410/.513 is a good ballplayer needs to have their head examined.


Son, you have a chance to take quite the rise up the retard chain in this thread. Don't let MVK down.

Cust has done it for one year, and you're quick to be on his nuts. Nady has improved each year but yet he's no good?

Seriously? You think Nady is better than Cust?

That wasn't my point. My point was he's quick to put down Nady who has improved each year, but he'll jump all over Cust, who has been dumped by several teams, for 1 good season.

To answer your question, I don't know. But Nady was pretty damned good this year when he wasn't hurt.

Cust never got a full oppurtunity to show he can put up the numbers he did when he was in the minors. Oakland gave him that chance and have been rewarded. Where exactly does Xavier Nady come into play?
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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:08 PM
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Would you like us to compare the Cleveland Indians Diamondview program to the coleco the Pirates are running?

We've shown you our examples, all you've done is call everyone nerds.



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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:08 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 10:07 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 03:04 AM)
But Nady was pretty damned good this year when he wasn't hurt.

And by 'pretty damned good' I'm assuming you meant, 'about .110 OPS points worse than Cust', right?

Nope. I don't acknowledge OPS.


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 03:06 AM)
QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 27 2007, 10:03 PM)
QUOTE
Prove me wrong!


What do you think we're doing?

Circle Jerking? You've shown me nothing.

All you've shown is a bunch of dumb examples. Show me your OPS AllStars.

Ok, here is our team:

C - Jorge Posada
1B - Carlos Pena
2B - Chase Utley
SS - Hanley Ramirez
3B - Alex Rodriguez
RF - Matt Holliday
CF - Curtis Granderson
LF - Barry Bonds
DH - David Ortiz

Your turn. Don't forget Raul Ibanez.


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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 27 2007, 10:08 PM)
Would you like us to compare the Cleveland Indians Diamondview program to the coleco the Pirates are running?

We've shown you our examples, all you've done is call everyone nerds.

So Curtis Granderson and Jack Wilson are on your team?


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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:11 PM
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Well, Curtis Granderson would be.

The Jack Wilson example was to show how ridiculous your argument is, because based on traditional stats like batting average, Jack Wilson is having a better season than Manny Ramirez.



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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:11 PM
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If we want to get really crazy, we might move Holliday to CF and throw Maggs into the lineup, but that is up to the manager.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:13 PM
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Our team has been sitting out at their positions for a while now, we are waiting for you to field a team.

Please be sure to let us know what traditional stat allows you to pick each player, too.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:14 PM
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Fine, without looking at OPS. and basing this off of traditional stats.

1) Ichiro
2) Hanley Ramirez
3) Magglio Ordonez
4) A-Rod
5) David Ortiz
6) Vlad Guerrero (DH)
7) Matt Holliday
8) Chase Utley
9) You pick the catcher

That's a pretty damn good lineup.

I filled this team with AVG, HR, and RBIs.


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:15 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 03:14 AM)
Fine, without looking at OPS. and basing this off of traditional stats.

1) Ichiro
2) Hanley Ramirez
3) Magglio Ordonez
4) A-Rod
5) David Ortiz
6) Vlad Guerrero (DH)
7) Matt Holliday
8) Chase Utley
9) You pick the catcher

That's a pretty damn good lineup.

Why am I picking the catcher? And why do Ichiro and H-Ram get to man the top of your lineup without those all important RBI?


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tobaccoroad
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:15 PM
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Not to poop on anyone's parade here but...

NYPirate has one legit point...

I love stats, but have never had time to get really in depth, so I consider myself to be someone who looks at traditional stats as the ones that make a good player. I do love hearing other arguements, mostly because I just love numbers.

Anyway, going by just my own traditional stats view, here would be the non-geeky all stars circa 2007:

C Victor Martinez
1B Prince Fielder
2B Chase Utley
SS Hanley Ramirez
3B Alex Rodriguez
OF Matt Holliday
OF Magglio Ordonez
OF Vlad Guerrero

These two teams look pretty similar, and I had already made up this one before I saw yours. His point about coming up with many of the same players on both teams rings true.

Shoes


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:16 PM
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I don't know if we want Pena or Ortiz, they struck out waaaaay more times than brad wilkerson and ryan garko
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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:17 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 10:15 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 03:14 AM)
Fine, without looking at OPS. and basing this off of traditional stats.

1) Ichiro
2) Hanley Ramirez
3) Magglio Ordonez
4) A-Rod
5) David Ortiz
6) Vlad Guerrero (DH)
7) Matt Holliday
8) Chase Utley
9) You pick the catcher

That's a pretty damn good lineup.

Why am I picking the catcher? And why do Ichiro and H-Ram get to man the top of your lineup without those all important RBI?

Speed. Doesn't take statistics to know you put the fastest players towards the top.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:18 PM
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I want to know why Hanley Ramirez gets to be on the traditional team with like negative 27 RBI.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:16 PM)
I don't know if we want Pena or Ortiz, they struck out waaaaay more times than brad wilkerson and ryan garko

So tell me what's wrong with my lineup then?


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:17 PM)
QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 10:15 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 28 2007, 03:14 AM)
Fine, without looking at OPS. and basing this off of traditional stats.

1) Ichiro
2) Hanley Ramirez
3) Magglio Ordonez
4) A-Rod
5) David Ortiz
6) Vlad Guerrero (DH)
7) Matt Holliday
8) Chase Utley
9) You pick the catcher

That's a pretty damn good lineup.

Why am I picking the catcher? And why do Ichiro and H-Ram get to man the top of your lineup without those all important RBI?

Speed. Doesn't take statistics to know you put the fastest players towards the top.

are you Jim Tracy?
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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:19 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 10:18 PM)
I want to know why Hanley Ramirez gets to be on the traditional team with like negative 27 RBI.

.333 AVG, which puts him Top 3 in the NL. That fits the criteria.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:19 PM
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Why isn't Placido Polanco your starting 2B? His average is way higher than Utleys.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:20 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:19 PM)
QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 10:18 PM)
I want to know why Hanley Ramirez gets to be on the traditional team with like negative 27 RBI.

.333 AVG, which puts him Top 3 in the NL.

so why not put placido polanco and his .340 avg there instead
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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:22 PM
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I want to see his WHIP-less pitching staff
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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:22 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 10:19 PM)
Why isn't Placido Polanco your starting 2B? His average is way higher than Utleys.

I don't think 9 points is "way" higher. Plus Utley's other traditional stats such as HRs and RBIs are much better.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:22 PM
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why not put chone figgins and his .336 BA in at 3B, he's batting at least 20 pts higher than Arod
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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:22 PM
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Chone Figgins wants to know why he got left off your team, his BA is like .20 points higher than Choke Rodriguez.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Sep 27 2007, 10:22 PM)
I want to see his WHIP-less pitching staff

Of course you do because I just proved my point.

How about you show me your OPS All Stars first?


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:23 PM)
QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Sep 27 2007, 10:22 PM)
I want to see his WHIP-less pitching staff



How about you show me your OPS All Stars first?

fuckstick, I think they did about 20 posts ago
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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:22 PM)
why not put chone figgins and his .336 BA in at 3B, he's batting at least 20 pts higher than Arod

Again, are you fucking retarded? Compare A-Rods traditional stats with Chones and come talk to me (AVG, HRs, RBIs)


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:24 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:23 PM)
QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Sep 27 2007, 10:22 PM)
I want to see his WHIP-less pitching staff

Of course you do because I just proved my point.

How about you show me your OPS All Stars first?

fuckstick, I think they did about 20 posts ago

Good, then I'll take my team over Granderson, Wilson, Sanchez, and Ibanez. I hope that really wasn't their team.


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tobaccoroad
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:25 PM
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QUOTE (JwILLsCERA @ Sep 27 2007, 10:19 PM)
Why isn't Placido Polanco your starting 2B? His average is way higher than Utleys.

I assume that you are over-simplifying his arguement for dramatic effect. If not, the "traditional" (read: non-geeky) view would take in a bunch of traditional stats together as a whole. To me, the important ones have always been HR, RBI, R, AVG, SB...then secondarily 2B and 3B...also "traditional" stats guys do look at games played, so Chase gets the nod over Cano or others because his stats are comparable and he missed some 30+ games.

I do love finding out new stat categories...but I think that the best players are the best players no matter which stats you use. I would think that the more in depth stats are better for comparing players from different eras, or for comparing lower tier types (like Nady), or for prediction of future success or failure based on trends, etc...

Shoes


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:26 PM
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MVK is impressed by the idiocy of NYPirate.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:26 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:24 PM)
QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:22 PM)
why not put chone figgins and his .336 BA in at 3B, he's batting at least 20 pts higher than Arod

Again, are you fucking retarted? Compare A-Rods traditional stats with Chones and come talk to me (AVG, HRs, RBIs)

so now we're going to use multiple traditional stats in relation to each other to compare players by position, that sounds kinda complicated and involves a lot of math






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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE (DoctorJohnnyFever @ Sep 27 2007, 10:26 PM)
MVK is impressed by the idiocy of NYPirate.

Yes, because I've proven you clowns wrong.


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Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:25 PM)
QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:24 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:23 PM)
QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Sep 27 2007, 10:22 PM)
I want to see his WHIP-less pitching staff

Of course you do because I just proved my point.

How about you show me your OPS All Stars first?

fuckstick, I think they did about 20 posts ago

Good, then I'll take my team over Granderson, Wilson, Sanchez, and Ibanez. I hope that really wasn't their team.

fucktard, learn to read.

QUOTE
Ok, here is our team:

C - Jorge Posada
1B - Carlos Pena
2B - Chase Utley
SS - Hanley Ramirez
3B - Alex Rodriguez
RF - Matt Holliday
CF - Curtis Granderson
LF - Barry Bonds
DH - David Ortiz



please show me ibanez, wilson and sanchez on that list.


you are building a temple to the idiot gods right now with your posts
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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:29 PM
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Why isn't Chris Young starting in CF over Ichiro, he has more RBI and way, way, way more HR?


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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:29 PM
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QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:26 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:24 PM)
QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:22 PM)
why not put chone figgins and his .336 BA in at 3B, he's batting at least 20 pts higher than Arod

Again, are you fucking retarted? Compare A-Rods traditional stats with Chones and come talk to me (AVG, HRs, RBIs)

so now we're going to use multiple traditional stats in relation to each other to compare players by position, that sounds kinda complicated and involves a lot of math






THE NERDS HAVE ALREADY WON

What's the matter? Your poor little OPS. got shut down now we're grasping for straws? Poor baby, maybe mommy can read you Money Ball to put you to sleep.


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CRIMHEAD
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:29 PM
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NYPirate isn't basing his lineup on stats. So he's not even making the proper argument.

But look, just run a regression analysis on every team's runs scored this year along with variables such as AVE, SLG, OBP, OPS, Walks, etc. and you will see VERY CLEARLY that out of all of those stats, Average is by far and away the least predictive of runs scored and OBP is usually first.

Feel free to download any of the statistical databases out there with all past MLB stats and you will come to the same conclusions. If you are going to strictly use stats, if you want to build a team that scores runs, OBP should be your priority over average. If you honestly can't run a regression analysis even in a basic spreadsheet program like Excel, then perhaps you shouldn't be speaking about stats intelligently.

And if a remote sense of intelligent makes anyone a geek, man, then it's pretty freakin' cool to be a geek.
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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:30 PM
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My team would have:

Catcher: Joe Mauer
First base: Prince Fielder - Even though he comes across as a total prick.
Second base: Chase Utley
Third base: Chipper Jones
Shortstop: Alex Rodriguez
Left field: Manny Ramirez
Center field: Grady Sizemore
Right Field: Vladimir Guerrero, with Magglio Ordonez making a strong push based on this season.




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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:31 PM
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Chris Young and his 32 HR are getting very antsy.


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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:28 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:25 PM)
QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:24 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:23 PM)
QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Sep 27 2007, 10:22 PM)
I want to see his WHIP-less pitching staff

Of course you do because I just proved my point.

How about you show me your OPS All Stars first?

fuckstick, I think they did about 20 posts ago

Good, then I'll take my team over Granderson, Wilson, Sanchez, and Ibanez. I hope that really wasn't their team.

fucktard, learn to read.

QUOTE
Ok, here is our team:

C - Jorge Posada
1B - Carlos Pena
2B - Chase Utley
SS - Hanley Ramirez
3B - Alex Rodriguez
RF - Matt Holliday
CF - Curtis Granderson
LF - Barry Bonds
DH - David Ortiz



please show me ibanez, wilson and sanchez on that list.


you are building a temple to the idiot gods right now with your posts

You know what's funny, 7 of your 9 players can be derived from traditional statistics. Which proves my original fucking point! Thank you.


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NYPirate
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:33 PM
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QUOTE (CRIMHEAD @ Sep 27 2007, 10:29 PM)
NYPirate isn't basing his lineup on stats. So he's not even making the proper argument.

But look, just run a regression analysis on every team's runs scored this year along with variables such as AVE, SLG, OBP, OPS, Walks, etc. and you will see VERY CLEARLY that out of all of those stats, Average is by far and away the least predictive of runs scored and OBP is usually first.

Feel free to download any of the statistical databases out there with all past MLB stats and you will come to the same conclusions. If you are going to strictly use stats, if you want to build a team that scores runs, OBP should be your priority over average. If you honestly can't run a regression analysis even in a basic spreadsheet program like Excel, then perhaps you shouldn't be speaking about stats intelligently.

And if a remote sense of intelligent makes anyone a geek, man, then it's pretty freakin' cool to be a geek.

I'm not? Don't tell me what I'm fucking doing. Every player on my team is in the top 10 of one or more of the traditonal statistics.


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JwILLsCERA
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:33 PM
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WHERE IS CHRIS YOUNG?!?!?


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ecbenito
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:33 PM)

Don't tell me what I'm fucking doing.

don't worry. none of us have a goddam clue what you're doing
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jeffr92
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 11:31 PM)
QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:28 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:25 PM)
QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:24 PM)
QUOTE (NYPirate @ Sep 27 2007, 10:23 PM)
QUOTE (jeffr92 @ Sep 27 2007, 10:22 PM)
I want to see his WHIP-less pitching staff

Of course you do because I just proved my point.

How about you show me your OPS All Stars first?

fuckstick, I think they did about 20 posts ago

Good, then I'll take my team over Granderson, Wilson, Sanchez, and Ibanez. I hope that really wasn't their team.

fucktard, learn to read.

QUOTE
Ok, here is our team:

C - Jorge Posada
1B - Carlos Pena
2B - Chase Utley
SS - Hanley Ramirez
3B - Alex Rodriguez
RF - Matt Holliday
CF - Curtis Granderson
LF - Barry Bonds
DH - David Ortiz



please show me ibanez, wilson and sanchez on that list.


you are building a temple to the idiot gods right now with your posts

You know what's funny, 7 of your 9 players can be derived from traditional statistics. Which proves my original fucking point! Thank you.

your original point said OPS was a worthless statistic, you have essentially combined the traditional stats to form a makeshift OPS stat (of course you wouldn't call it OPS) to build your team.
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DoctorJohnnyFever
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:34 PM
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This thread reminds me of the stat defdog posted yesterday:

QUOTE
This years Pirates have done something theyve never done before in team history or for that fact the Yankees have never done either and thats put out a lineup of everyday players with all at least 20 doubles and 10 HR's. This lineup which has been used before did it

McLouth,Bautista,Sanchez,LaRoche,Nady,Bay,Paulino and Wilson


Yankees and Pirates were the only 2 teams i checked all the way thru but in the 2 franchises combined 228 years its never been done before.Maybe ill check more teams later but for now since i dont work for Elias i actually to go to work





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tobaccoroad
Posted: Sep 27 2007, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE (ecbenito @ Sep 27 2007, 10:28 PM)

C - Jorge Posada
1B - Carlos Pena
2B - Chase Utley
SS - Hanley Ramirez
3B - Alex Rodriguez
RF - Matt Holliday
CF - Curtis Granderson
LF - Barry Bonds
DH - David Ortiz

Carlos Pena over Prince Fielder? I'd need to see the nerdy stat that told you to pull that one out of your ass.

Barry Bonds over Magglio Ordonez or Vlad Guerrero? Seriously?

Shoes


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